View Poll Results: Do you want a file manager?

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  • Yes

    81 79.41%
  • No

    9 8.82%
  • I don't care

    12 11.76%
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  1. y2bd's Avatar
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    #51  
    I really like the idea of the Share contract from Windows 8, and it seems like something that'd be useful for WP7/8.

    At the moment, file extensions work to some extent, but it seems that many apps don't even register themselves. Try sending yourself an .epub file and opening it. It'll tell you that you need an app to run it, and no apps come up in the store, even though there are plenty of epub readers. I'm just learning about WP8 dev at the moment, but are there any devs that can comment on the ease of file association? Are all these ebook-reading software devs just lazy, or does MS make it difficult to do this?

    Edit: Did some research, found out that file associations are new to WP8, and that devs that haven't implemented them yet (especially in apps that really need them to function) are just lazy (or they haven't pushed their updates yet). Sigh.
    Last edited by y2bd; 01-15-2013 at 03:37 AM.
  2. #52  
    @ToneZone
    I’m going to ignore your snarky comments and your ignorance based confidence. I’m neither a blind fanatic nor did I lie about my professional occupation. I hope we can leave such immaturities aside going forward.

    Although I disagree with most of your statements, I do agree with some of them, such as the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by ToneZone View Post
    managing the file location would be nice but really isn't part of the main issue
    Quote Originally Posted by ToneZone View Post
    I never claimed you needed access to the native file system, but some part of the file system will need to be opened or created for general consumption
    Quote Originally Posted by ToneZone View Post
    the sandbox created by MS is the true problem
    Those statements nicely address the idiocy of this discussion. With the unfortunate exception of you being unable to download and view PDF's on WP8, which generally works just fine, we all agree what the problems are. You and I also agree that managing files isn’t one of them. As you yourself stated, the “true” problem is the sandboxing of apps, or more precisely:

    • WP’s concept of isolated (WP7) or local (WP8) storage, meaning:
      • Every app has its own dedicated space on the filesystem, which is entirely inaccessible to any and every other app.
      • 3rd party apps can write to and modify only those files which reside in their own dedicated space on the filesystem. Even the SD card and WP’s library folders (documents, videos and music folders) are off limits.

    • WP’s insistence that an app must have associated itself with a particular file type, say a *.3ds file, if the app expects to be able to do anything with a *.3ds file. Want to upload a *.3ds file to DropBox from your SD card? Currently impossible, unless DropBox is associated with *.3ds files (and every other conceivable file extension), which is just silly.

    The above are the root causes of all the problems people have expressed so far.

    I’m not saying that a file manager is a terrible idea, or that a file manager can under no circumstances be part of a solution. I am saying that invoking the word “file manager” doesn’t say anything about how the above issues would be addressed. Hence, doing so contributes nothing towards stating how the problems mentioned would be resolved.

    I’ll concede that those ignorant enough to suggest Microsoft throw all of their security measures overboard and programmatically expose the entire filesystem actually have found a solution (I know you aren’t suggesting such nonsense, but others have implied as much). However, again, that has nothing to do with a file manager… that suggestion simply takes a sledge hammer to WP’s security architecture and removes all restrictions, thereby allowing any app to do anything. At that point DropBox would work great without a dedicated file manager app, though any person seriously insisting on such an approach is really just disqualifying themselves from the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToneZone View Post

    1. Do you understand the problems MS created with their isolated storage model?
    2. Do you understand the problems MS created with WP security model?
    3. Do you understand how these limitations discourage app development on the platform? (especially for top tier apps)
    4. Do you understand how a secure environment is inconsequential with a dwindling 3% market share?
    1. Yes. We’ve been discussing them here this whole time. Useless question.
    2. No. Explain.
    3. Yes. However, it doesn’t affect a lot of apps. Unfortunately, it does make developing an app that aims to work with arbitrary file types an impossibility at this time.
    4. No. I would in fact argue the opposite, namely that a secure environment is essential in order for these devices to gain market share, as they are poised to replace our credit cards in our not too distant future. You can always relax security policies, but tightening them is extremely difficult without causing revolts amongst users and developers. Microsoft is doing the right thing by starting out extremely restrictive and then tweaking where needed going forward… Microsoft just needs to finally shift out of first gear (preferably find fourth and not second).


    Quote Originally Posted by ToneZone View Post
    Let's hear what your solution is
    As I said, I can think of a few solutions that don’t require a dedicated file manager app. I’ll give you just one example:

    First, Microsoft should add a single shared folder that is programmatically and fully accessible by any app. I’ll call it the “Shared” folder. I imagine it would also show up when the device is plugged into a USB host (as do the other library folders). IE would also require a slight tweak, as to save downloaded files of an unassociated type in this folder. Apps like DropBox would do the same, and could also upload files from here. This solves all our download problems and some of the upload problems without a dedicated file manager app.

    Second, Microsoft should introduce a new component to the SDK and encourage developers to use it wherever lists of files are displayed. Since PDF files are all the rage in this thread, I’ll use Acrobat Reader (from WP7) as an example of how users would interact with this new component:

    • Launch Acrobat. Acrobat opens to the same two-page panorama view it always has, listing various PDF files (the files are displayed using this new component).
    • Press to the left of one or more PDF file names. A checkmark appears to their left, similar to WP’s e-mail app.
    • Press the ellipsis. This opens the app menu which includes the entry "send to..."
    • Press "send to..." and then select the desired send-to-target. Examples of send-to-targets may be “Shared folder”, “SkyDrive”, “FTP” and “DropBox” (assuming DropBox is installed)
    • Select DropBox. The DropBox app is launched. DropBox opens to the upload page and is temporarily given permission to read the selected PDF files (and only them) from Adobe Acrobat’s isolated storage.
    • Optionally change the DropBox folder to which the PDF files are uploaded, then press upload. The file transfer commences and continues in the background until complete.
    • Press the back button at any time. This returns the user to Acrobat.

    This solves all the issues related with apps not being able to handle arbitrary file types and all remaining upload problems, as it allows us to hand off files from isolated storage to apps like DropBox in a controlled fashion.

    Notes:


    • I imagine any app could register itself as a send-to-target with the OS. Some send-to-targets like “Shared folder”, “SkyDrive”, “FTP” and “WebDAV” would hopefully ship as part of WP.
    • Since it is the OS which implements the component and the “send to…” app menus, usage would be consistent across all apps once incorporated. It would work identically for any file types and in any app.
    • Apps storing confidential information (like banking apps) probably shouldn’t support “send to…” functionality, in which case the developer just wouldn't use the component.
    • The “send to…” mechanism essentially allows apps to exchange files of any type amongst themselves. Any app that acts as a send-to-target is effectively saying: “you can send me multiple files of any file type you want, I can do something useful with it”.


    I’m not claiming that this is the best solution or even a realistic solution. Since I don’t have access to Microsoft’s internal security specifications for WP I can’t even say if it is a secure one. What I am saying is that this solves all the problems previously mentioned without:

    1. requiring a dedicated file manager app and
    2. making mincemeat of WP’s current security mechanisms which are extremely important, despite one ignorant fool claiming otherwise
    Last edited by a5cent; 01-15-2013 at 04:08 AM. Reason: Slight clarifications throughout
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    alpinestars1z and drbanks like this.
  3. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by y2bd View Post
    I'm just learning about WP8 dev at the moment, but are there any devs that can comment on the ease of file association?
    Hmm... even laziness sounds like a terrible excuse for not registering file associations. It is ridiculously simple. Enter your file extensions into your apps manifest file and you're done. I can't imagine this taking more than a minute.

    Auto-launching apps using file and URI associations for Windows Phone 8
  4. Silver Wind's Avatar
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    #54  
    I think the best solution to file managing on WP would be something similar to the "Libraries" in Windows Vista/7/8.

    Consider this:
    • It'll default to the good old "Music", "Pictures", "Videos", "Documents", and an "Others" library
    • Yuh may manage the settings for each library to decide what file formats it will show, and from what locations. If a format isn't listed in one of the managed libraries, it goes to the "Others" library.
    • Yuh may add more libraries as yuh wish
    • It doesn't involve a separate space for files we store, but it would allow us to access the files we want to anyway.
    • Furthermore, it should allow yuh to do basic file operations (like sub-folders in libraries that still work as a database with its own settings, and "send to/share with" operations; maybe even renaming, deleting and making new files, among other things)
    • The sub-folder are the same as libraries, except they give the impression of being more organised. Yuh may alter the settings for each subfolder to show stuff from specific folders, etc.
    • The whole purpose is to allow us to access files we can't access right now. NOT to allow us to access system files, application data, etc. That would be very pointless.

    Just an idea. =)
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  5. y2bd's Avatar
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Hmm... even laziness sounds like a terrible excuse for not registering file associations. It is ridiculously simple. Enter your file extensions into your apps manifest file and you're done. I can't imagine this taking more than a minute.

    Auto-launching apps using file and URI associations for Windows Phone 8
    I say moreso people who drop v1 apps on WP7 and never touch them again.
  6. ohgood's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Blake View Post
    My apologies but I feel as the Admin of this forum it is my responsibility to make sure this community isn't handed false information.
    That sounds like a great idea! Fact checking, fud displacing, and rumor squashing is allllllll on your shoulders.

    Is it your opinion that other platforms are less secure because they have file managers ?
    awwwww how sweeeeeet. thanks !
  7. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Wind View Post
    I think the best solution to file managing on WP would be something similar to the "Libraries" in Windows Vista/7/8.
    Hey silver wind, welcome to WPC. What I like about your suggestion is that it actually would solve the problems previously mentioned without removing all existing security mechanisms (although it would circumvent many of them). Unfortunately, I can also think of quite a few new problems that approach would introduce. If you want me to, I can attempt to list a few of them.
  8. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToneZone View Post
    @A5cent, I think you are going out of your way to not call a duck a duck
    I suspected you would.

    I think you are imagining a duck where none exists. The conceptual foundation is sound. Our dispute is not about the problems, but about possible solutions and their implications. I've shown that solutions do exist beyond what you previously considered viable, without throwing out the baby with the bathwater (security). However, that one example is barely the tip of the iceberg, as many alternative solutions exist.

    If we haven't closed our argumentative gap at least somewhat at this point, then we might just as well put it to rest, as we never will.
  9. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToneZone View Post
    send to is basically going to be a platform wide manager of files in a specified location, as requested in this thread)
    I don't care what you call it either. The difference is that it is not a separate app dedicated to circumventing isolated storage, which a file manager (at least as previously hinted at) would have been.
  10. #60  
    Ehmm... server error? ToneZone and all his posts just vanished into thin air???
    eric12341 likes this.
  11. Dave Blake's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohgood View Post
    That sounds like a great idea! Fact checking, fud displacing, and rumor squashing is allllllll on your shoulders.

    Is it your opinion that other platforms are less secure because they have file managers ?
    Its always in 2 parts with you... First part I will do my best... part 2... From what I know about other platforms is it doesn't make a difference either way when talking about Android and IOS their security system is set up completely different from WP. What I do know is WP is safer without one... for now.
  12. ohgood's Avatar
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    #62  
    Whoa, who cleaned the thread ? Crap :(
    awwwww how sweeeeeet. thanks !
  13. uakarired's Avatar
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    #63  
    HI, just 2 cwnts from a business user; all we want to be able to do for the most part is to be able to attach, forward and delete various file formats besides MS docs, which would include perhaps most importantly PDFs. And you should be able to do this on the phone without SkyDrive involvement. That would seem to be basic functionality that should be imposed or facilitated. Geex, MS wrote the PDF reader and you can't even delete a doc or forward it.
  14. JerseySal's Avatar
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    #64  
    I use Skydrive
    ~Sal
  15. Dimitar Petkov's Avatar
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    #65  
    Yes there is a file manager for iPhone, but only for the phones that are jailbroken.
    And mine was, one of the reason is the fie manager. What you would do if you want to open a file with different app and you can't access skydrive because you don't have internet. While it's rear it's not impossible to be somewhere for a while without internet. I guess you would say use your phone, well what if the signal is very bad and you can get it only in a few locations. I've lived in places like this so I know what I'm talking about. And another question - What if there is no computer around ? Then what you will do.
    Because you can't directly access files from an app if the files are in the directory of another app, but having file manager allowed me to copy the file to the folder of the other app and then open it. And I never used it to access system files even I could, just to access my OWN files and do with them what ever I want.
    Last edited by Dimitar Petkov; 01-29-2013 at 03:06 AM.
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  16. Aanze's Avatar
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    As I said, I can think of a few solutions that don’t require a dedicated file manager app. I’ll give you just one example:

    First, Microsoft should add a single shared folder that is programmatically and fully accessible by any app. I’ll call it the “Shared” folder. I imagine it would also show up when the device is plugged into a USB host (as do the other library folders). IE would also require a slight tweak, as to save downloaded files of an unassociated type in this folder. Apps like DropBox would do the same, and could also upload files from here. This solves all our download problems and some of the upload problems without a dedicated file manager app.

    Second, Microsoft should introduce a new component to the SDK and encourage developers to use it wherever lists of files are displayed. Since PDF files are all the rage in this thread, I’ll use Acrobat Reader (from WP7) as an example of how users would interact with this new component:

    • Launch Acrobat. Acrobat opens to the same two-page panorama view it always has, listing various PDF files (the files are displayed using this new component).
    • Press to the left of one or more PDF file names. A checkmark appears to their left, similar to WP’s e-mail app.
    • Press the ellipsis. This opens the app menu which includes the entry "send to..."
    • Press "send to..." and then select the desired send-to-target. Examples of send-to-targets may be “Shared folder”, “SkyDrive”, “FTP” and “DropBox” (assuming DropBox is installed)
    • Select DropBox. The DropBox app is launched. DropBox opens to the upload page and is temporarily given permission to read the selected PDF files (and only them) from Adobe Acrobat’s isolated storage.
    • Optionally change the DropBox folder to which the PDF files are uploaded, then press upload. The file transfer commences and continues in the background until complete.
    • Press the back button at any time. This returns the user to Acrobat.

    This solves all the issues related with apps not being able to handle arbitrary file types and all remaining upload problems, as it allows us to hand off files from isolated storage to apps like DropBox in a controlled fashion.

    Notes:


    • I imagine any app could register itself as a send-to-target with the OS. Some send-to-targets like “Shared folder”, “SkyDrive”, “FTP” and “WebDAV” would hopefully ship as part of WP.
    • Since it is the OS which implements the component and the “send to…” app menus, usage would be consistent across all apps once incorporated. It would work identically for any file types and in any app.
    • Apps storing confidential information (like banking apps) probably shouldn’t support “send to…” functionality, in which case the developer just wouldn't use the component.
    • The “send to…” mechanism essentially allows apps to exchange files of any type amongst themselves. Any app that acts as a send-to-target is effectively saying: “you can send me multiple files of any file type you want, I can do something useful with it”.


    I’m not claiming that this is the best solution or even a realistic solution. Since I don’t have access to Microsoft’s internal security specifications for WP I can’t even say if it is a secure one. What I am saying is that this solves all the problems previously mentioned without:

    1. requiring a dedicated file manager app and
    2. making mincemeat of WP’s current security mechanisms which are extremely important, despite one ignorant fool claiming otherwise
    I want to vote for that.
  17. fiddler69uk's Avatar
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    #67  
    yes.
  18. johnnylai's Avatar
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    #68  
    i want apps can install to sd card.
  19. andraeseus's Avatar
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    #69  
    that sounds like the most round about way to do a simple thing. What about organization. unless I missed something that doesnt address that. organization makes it easy to find the things you need and want because you put them there. why not just find a way to make a file manager work on windows phone 8. if you cannot do it then say so. say.. I am not smart enough to do it. Then people would stop asking. If people need to be organized on their desktops then why wouldn't they need it on their bussiness angled windows phone. I record music. I would like to get files from my producer and store them in folders I set up to keep thingss organized. and and.... what ever. this is ******ed. I am just stuck with this stupid half baked phone till I get a new one.
  20. VipulGupta's Avatar
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    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Adding features that allows/requires users to fiddle around with things they shouldn't need to fiddle with in the first place is a terrible idea. It's like adding a treadmill to every Sony television because their power cords are defective. Fix the problem, don't engineer around it.



    As it is now, each app saves files in its own storage area that is isolated from every other app and shielded from direct user access. The only way to access such a file is by uploading a copy to a server, typically SkyDrive, and accessing it there. Unfortunately, not every app can upload files. Even if a particular app can upload files to SkyDrive, that might not always be appropriate. For example, many people have their own NAS servers at home and would appreciate being able to upload their files via shared folders, WebDAV or FTP. The inability to attach arbitrary files to e-mails is a similar problem. As it is now, every app must include these exact same features... over and over again, as part of every individual app. Not good.

    These are what I perceive to be the main file related problems. I'm doubtful that a file explorer app is the best way to solve these though.

    For anyone on this forum a file explorer app certainly wouldn't cause any problems, but for many of the more casual smartphone users it may. Such an app also has the potential to introduce security holes into the system.
    To say it is unbelievable is a gross understatement. At first I thought that I am definitely missing something, and kept on looking for ways to attach a file. But after spending some time, when I could not figure it out, searched over the internet and found that it has been figured it out by many that you cannot attach a file in your email locally!!! Well I am unable to figure out the words to express my amazement and how disgusted and cheated I feel right now. Can anyone believe this, for god’s sake?
    A company like Microsoft who has made ‘outllook’, the most widely used email client, would make an email app in which you cannot attach a file, is simply unbelievable to say the least. Is this some kind of a joke or has the company really decided to shoot itself in the foot and is trying its best. As per me a smartphone has three most important functions i.e. to make a call, send a message and send or receive an email – rest all the functions added to it are secondary. And if a person is buying a product from a company like Microsoft he would assume an adequate implementation of atleast these functions, and I am horrified to say the least.
    I am more amazed because this output is coming after more than three to four years of product development. And this is in a product on which it has put billions of dollars at stake. This makes me feel that this is some kind of business decision rather than an error. So has the Microsoft suddenly felt that its customers no longer want to attach files in their email, is this an outcome of some kind of intense research? This makes me wonder is there some kind of Trojan in this company from Google or Apple who is making these decisions to deliberately makes Microsoft’s products unusable even at a basic level. Isn’t this the most basic functionality of an email client - to attach files?
    So I a faithful customer of Microsoft is now stuck with a product which I purchased for more than $700, from which I cannot even send mails! A person who uptill now was vouching for its mobile OS and heaving praise at various forums is now stuck with an virtually unusable product. Amazingly this omission wasn’t covered even in a single review out of hundreds of WP8 reviews I read. Well after using my Lumia920 for two days, I have come across hundreds of things that require serious work on the operating system, but none so basic and essential as this one. And I must mention here that we are talking about a company who targets its products towards enterprises and professional users as well. I wonder how the entire team working on this email client visualized the professionals using a product in which they cannot attach files, they cannot save their attachments in different folders, cannot browse their files and folders – you bet – I am done with this, almost. What is going on over here, android has this since last three years, are these some backward steps from Microsoft to let Android continue to have android a free run. Google is beating MS in MS’s turf, and I was seriously expecting much more after more than 3 years of product development.

    There is not even a third party app which can do this, so for how many days can I use this product now that I have bought this, without sending emails, can someone please tell me over here? I had put some basic level trust while purchasing this and yes I feel betrayed.
    Ok let me try and address the glaring flaws in the thought process when this idea was conceptualized:
    No I do not want to attach files only from Skydrive or the attachment I have received because Skydrive has space limitations, my phone has more memory. Attachment that I receive is something that I wanted and the attachment that I want to send is something that some other person wants. These are two different things. Can someone in MS understands this. I want to the freedom to organize my files in various folders in the phone, copy files from my PC in various folders and send whatever I want. Do not try and take away my freedom, I love my freedom and I would not stay with you, because I have options.
    Right now if I compose an email and try to attach, the only option I get is to attach a photo and no skydrive option. I have to first open office or skydrive, and from there send the file, the implementation of skydrive itself is flawed. In my phone skydrive app itself is not able to connect, I do not know the issue, to I am stuck like ****. What if I create anything in the phone and want to attach it? What happens if I reply to an email and want to attach something??? Only thing I can attach right now in reply is photos!!! Really?
    What if I want to send an email when there is no internet connection, so I just want to attach the file and press the send button, and leave it, so that whenever there is an internet connection, the email is sent automatically. Why do I have to rely so heavily on skydrive and wait for the internet connection even to compose my email?

    By not letting I am pretty sure that MS is desperately trying to play Apple over here. It is thinking that by adopting Apple philosophies it can achieve success. However, it needs to understand that not all philosophies of Apple are good, or popular or are leading to its success. MS seriously needs to differentiate. The restriction to not let outside apps to be install is a quality control decision; however, not letting the users to browse its files or to attach its files is taking away its freedom and basic usability of product with no obvious gain. MS needs to realize that it is because of these restrictions from Apple, people are trying to move away from its products and the popularity of Android is increasing. Who wants to stay in a jail and for how long? MS needs to understand that its customers have always been people who like freedom and who understands products and their usability. MS needs to understand that the bulk of its customers which would shift to WP, if ever, would be from Android and not Apple, so it needs to align its product more towards usability and freedom and less towards Apple. Apple has its set customers, the ‘iDiots’ who like iProducts, who have low requirements and are happy with whatever **** they get, and so a lot of them would continue to be with Apple. Android is the one who has taken MS’s customers and they are the first one MS needs to target. MS’s customers are professionals as well and MS’s have partners as well, more like Google and less like Apple, and the partners would also like their customers to have the freedom and maximum usability of product or they would stick with Android. I was one of those customer and I really wanted to use this product, but MS tried really hard for me not to use it and has almost succeeded. There are many like me. Time is running away very fast for MS, it really needs to act very swiftly, to make the product usable atleast at the basic level. This is not 1980’s or 1990’s or even 2000, competition is running away, and people are loosing patience and people have to get the work done. Companies have to act fast or they would be left behind. Take a lesson from the way Google way surpassed MS in the mobile OS and would continue to do so if MS atleast now do not take it seriously.
    I blindingly expected that MS would have delivered much more than what I got. Android 2.2 which was released in 2010 is able to connect to the Blue & Me in my car which is built my MS, but WP8 built by MS in 2013 is not able connect, one more reason to make my phone virtually unusable. A lot of the websites get stuck in IE10 in WP8 in the end and just show a white page and are in any case very very slow, another reason to make this product virtually unusable.
    Don’t sit on those billions of dollars, use them to improve your product very very swiftly, in a matter of few weeks and surprise the industry in a different way, no matter how much resources needed to be put for it. As this is your bread and butter, which build those billions.

    I do not understand what MS wants to make things tougher for the user and not keep it simple and normal as they are in other enviornments like tablet, laptop and desktop. Why should we do things differently here and in a more tedious way where 90% of the prople would have a hard time understanding it in the first case and even if they do understand this in any case is not they way things should be.

    Why does MS wants to put people in jail like Apple. These are not the policies of Apple which anyone appreciates. Peole like Android over iOS, and thus the market share, because of these reasons, it gives user choises, its give people their freedom.

    MS had 95% market share as compared to Apple because earlier it valued the freedom of its users when Apple restriced its platform to its own hardware.

    Why is MS trying to take backward steps which no user would appreciate.

    You can always have the option to work from cloud and all that but let it be an option, do not force it on users. People have their own likings and work dynamics.

    Why should I not be able to simple click browse and go to my folder and attach the file, just the way we do it. Why should I first go to office to send a file and change my total workfrom from the normal one. In this case I unnessorily would be using two applications and in any case why should I do it? What would happen why I have more than 100 files, where would I search them in office. Why should I not organise them as per my liking in different folders. what about documents that do not belog to office. Reply in any case do not work. What should I do if I want to reply back with one pdf, one zip and one mp3 files? With quadcore, octacore and increasing screen sizes, people ought to use their mobiles more as tablets and as total communication devices. If MS is talking of integration of different platforms then why does it want its users to have a totally different kind of experience on 5inch/7inch device and 10 inch device. Shouldn't there be basic commonality in the workflow of all the devices?

    If MS wants to restric access to a certain section of the space the do it, but let the other space be free and visible to people, let them have the freedom to organise and play with it.

    Don't try and fool around with people's freedom because they will not let you do it, more so because Android is up MS's neck and MS's competition is with Android and not with iOS. And it is Android which is currently beating MS very badly on MS's turf of operating system. It needs to act very very fast as in all honesty in its current state WP8 is unusable even at a basic level. Time is running away for them and I a loyal user have been royaly fooled by MS by giving an OS with such restrictions and absence of basic functionalities. I was expecting much more from this OS and definitely not a stupid Apple like policy towads restrictive approach. I hope MS learns from the users demand in various forums to bring these functionalities or else I like many other users are difinitely gonna shift to android.

    MS need to try its best NOT TO TRY AND PUT ITS CUSTOMERS IN ANY FORM OF JAIL except the apps market, it would grossly backfire.
  21. VipulGupta's Avatar
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    If you truly believe there is but one way to accomplish the simple tasks you've listed, then you suffer from a lack of imagination. Usually many solutions exist to any given computing problem.

    If your list included every required feature, I would view a file explorer app as complete overkill. I can think of multiple ways of meeting those requirements without:

    a) a file explorer app
    b) requiring every developer to replicate file related functionality in every app
    c) compromising the security/reliability benefits offered by isolated storage (which a file explorer app would)
    To say it is unbelievable is a gross understatement. At first I thought that I am definitely missing something, and kept on looking for ways to attach a file. But after spending some time, when I could not figure it out, searched over the internet and found that it has been figured it out by many that you cannot attach a file in your email locally!!! Well I am unable to figure out the words to express my amazement and how disgusted and cheated I feel right now. Can anyone believe this, for god’s sake?
    A company like Microsoft who has made ‘outllook’, the most widely used email client, would make an email app in which you cannot attach a file, is simply unbelievable to say the least. Is this some kind of a joke or has the company really decided to shoot itself in the foot and is trying its best. As per me a smartphone has three most important functions i.e. to make a call, send a message and send or receive an email – rest all the functions added to it are secondary. And if a person is buying a product from a company like Microsoft he would assume an adequate implementation of atleast these functions, and I am horrified to say the least.
    I am more amazed because this output is coming after more than three to four years of product development. And this is in a product on which it has put billions of dollars at stake. This makes me feel that this is some kind of business decision rather than an error. So has the Microsoft suddenly felt that its customers no longer want to attach files in their email, is this an outcome of some kind of intense research? This makes me wonder is there some kind of Trojan in this company from Google or Apple who is making these decisions to deliberately makes Microsoft’s products unusable even at a basic level. Isn’t this the most basic functionality of an email client - to attach files?
    So I a faithful customer of Microsoft is now stuck with a product which I purchased for more than $700, from which I cannot even send mails! A person who uptill now was vouching for its mobile OS and heaving praise at various forums is now stuck with an virtually unusable product. Amazingly this omission wasn’t covered even in a single review out of hundreds of WP8 reviews I read. Well after using my Lumia920 for two days, I have come across hundreds of things that require serious work on the operating system, but none so basic and essential as this one. And I must mention here that we are talking about a company who targets its products towards enterprises and professional users as well. I wonder how the entire team working on this email client visualized the professionals using a product in which they cannot attach files, they cannot save their attachments in different folders, cannot browse their files and folders – you bet – I am done with this, almost. What is going on over here, android has this since last three years, are these some backward steps from Microsoft to let Android continue to have android a free run. Google is beating MS in MS’s turf, and I was seriously expecting much more after more than 3 years of product development.

    There is not even a third party app which can do this, so for how many days can I use this product now that I have bought this, without sending emails, can someone please tell me over here? I had put some basic level trust while purchasing this and yes I feel betrayed.
    Ok let me try and address the glaring flaws in the thought process when this idea was conceptualized:
    No I do not want to attach files only from Skydrive or the attachment I have received because Skydrive has space limitations, my phone has more memory. Attachment that I receive is something that I wanted and the attachment that I want to send is something that some other person wants. These are two different things. Can someone in MS understands this. I want to the freedom to organize my files in various folders in the phone, copy files from my PC in various folders and send whatever I want. Do not try and take away my freedom, I love my freedom and I would not stay with you, because I have options.
    Right now if I compose an email and try to attach, the only option I get is to attach a photo and no skydrive option. I have to first open office or skydrive, and from there send the file, the implementation of skydrive itself is flawed. In my phone skydrive app itself is not able to connect, I do not know the issue, to I am stuck like ****. What if I create anything in the phone and want to attach it? What happens if I reply to an email and want to attach something??? Only thing I can attach right now in reply is photos!!! Really?
    What if I want to send an email when there is no internet connection, so I just want to attach the file and press the send button, and leave it, so that whenever there is an internet connection, the email is sent automatically. Why do I have to rely so heavily on skydrive and wait for the internet connection even to compose my email?

    By not letting I am pretty sure that MS is desperately trying to play Apple over here. It is thinking that by adopting Apple philosophies it can achieve success. However, it needs to understand that not all philosophies of Apple are good, or popular or are leading to its success. MS seriously needs to differentiate. The restriction to not let outside apps to be install is a quality control decision; however, not letting the users to browse its files or to attach its files is taking away its freedom and basic usability of product with no obvious gain. MS needs to realize that it is because of these restrictions from Apple, people are trying to move away from its products and the popularity of Android is increasing. Who wants to stay in a jail and for how long? MS needs to understand that its customers have always been people who like freedom and who understands products and their usability. MS needs to understand that the bulk of its customers which would shift to WP, if ever, would be from Android and not Apple, so it needs to align its product more towards usability and freedom and less towards Apple. Apple has its set customers, the ‘iDiots’ who like iProducts, who have low requirements and are happy with whatever **** they get, and so a lot of them would continue to be with Apple. Android is the one who has taken MS’s customers and they are the first one MS needs to target. MS’s customers are professionals as well and MS’s have partners as well, more like Google and less like Apple, and the partners would also like their customers to have the freedom and maximum usability of product or they would stick with Android. I was one of those customer and I really wanted to use this product, but MS tried really hard for me not to use it and has almost succeeded. There are many like me. Time is running away very fast for MS, it really needs to act very swiftly, to make the product usable atleast at the basic level. This is not 1980’s or 1990’s or even 2000, competition is running away, and people are loosing patience and people have to get the work done. Companies have to act fast or they would be left behind. Take a lesson from the way Google way surpassed MS in the mobile OS and would continue to do so if MS atleast now do not take it seriously.
    I blindingly expected that MS would have delivered much more than what I got. Android 2.2 which was released in 2010 is able to connect to the Blue & Me in my car which is built my MS, but WP8 built by MS in 2013 is not able connect, one more reason to make my phone virtually unusable. A lot of the websites get stuck in IE10 in WP8 in the end and just show a white page and are in any case very very slow, another reason to make this product virtually unusable.
    Don’t sit on those billions of dollars, use them to improve your product very very swiftly, in a matter of few weeks and surprise the industry in a different way, no matter how much resources needed to be put for it. As this is your bread and butter, which build those billions.

    I do not understand what MS wants to make things tougher for the user and not keep it simple and normal as they are in other enviornments like tablet, laptop and desktop. Why should we do things differently here and in a more tedious way where 90% of the prople would have a hard time understanding it in the first case and even if they do understand this in any case is not they way things should be.

    Why does MS wants to put people in jail like Apple. These are not the policies of Apple which anyone appreciates. Peole like Android over iOS, and thus the market share, because of these reasons, it gives user choises, its give people their freedom.

    MS had 95% market share as compared to Apple because earlier it valued the freedom of its users when Apple restriced its platform to its own hardware.

    Why is MS trying to take backward steps which no user would appreciate.

    You can always have the option to work from cloud and all that but let it be an option, do not force it on users. People have their own likings and work dynamics.

    Why should I not be able to simple click browse and go to my folder and attach the file, just the way we do it. Why should I first go to office to send a file and change my total workfrom from the normal one. In this case I unnessorily would be using two applications and in any case why should I do it? What would happen why I have more than 100 files, where would I search them in office. Why should I not organise them as per my liking in different folders. what about documents that do not belog to office. Reply in any case do not work. What should I do if I want to reply back with one pdf, one zip and one mp3 files? With quadcore, octacore and increasing screen sizes, people ought to use their mobiles more as tablets and as total communication devices. If MS is talking of integration of different platforms then why does it want its users to have a totally different kind of experience on 5inch/7inch device and 10 inch device. Shouldn't there be basic commonality in the workflow of all the devices?

    If MS wants to restric access to a certain section of the space the do it, but let the other space be free and visible to people, let them have the freedom to organise and play with it.

    Don't try and fool around with people's freedom because they will not let you do it, more so because Android is up MS's neck and MS's competition is with Android and not with iOS. And it is Android which is currently beating MS very badly on MS's turf of operating system. It needs to act very very fast as in all honesty in its current state WP8 is unusable even at a basic level. Time is running away for them and I a loyal user have been royaly fooled by MS by giving an OS with such restrictions and absence of basic functionalities. I was expecting much more from this OS and definitely not a stupid Apple like policy towads restrictive approach. I hope MS learns from the users demand in various forums to bring these functionalities or else I like many other users are difinitely gonna shift to android.

    MS need to try its best NOT TO TRY AND PUT ITS CUSTOMERS IN ANY FORM OF JAIL except the apps market, it would grossly backfire
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  22. VipulGupta's Avatar
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    10 Posts
    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by spaulagain View Post
    I never said there was a solution for a file manager with WP and developers. I simply said that in general there are a lot of things you can do when developing for WP and its much easier for a W8 port to WP8.

    Most people don't need a file manager and most developers don't need access to one for apps.

    Would a file manager be nice? Sure, but for most peoples needs, being able to put files on the phone though windows explore and SkyDrive is enough. Not being able to do what you want is not some catastrophic issue for developers that makes the OS impossible to develop for or scare 99% of them a way.

    You act as if WP is impossible to develop for because of this restriction. "M$ sandbox" this and that. What about iOS? Have you ever tried developing for that? Its a royal nightmare.

    In fact, although I haven't used it lately, but is there even a file manager for it?

    You've played with Android right? What about the fact that there is a million versions of Android out there because half the phones can't update? So now developers have to create 10 different versions just so they can get it on everyone's phone.

    Each platform has its draw backs WP is actually pretty damn easy to develop for though despite your rant for a stupid file manager.
    The way that you are defending this without any clear logic and by quoting weak examples of competition clearly shows the malice behind your intent to do so. I am not sure if you are a paid person who is hired to defend the way MS wants to take this OS forward, but even if you are you would be doing it at your own cost. No one is benefiting out here as a user, in terms of monetory returns from MS, even if does add the features that the users want, but the MS. It is reflected from the poll above and in every other forum that how deperately users want the file explorer. It has to be an integral part of the operating system unless you want to deliberately jail your users. No one is asking MS to give access to the OS part of the storage, but restricting the use of the remaining storage is cheating with people and simply fooling around. You might feel happy by putting illogical arguments here in MS defence, but you cannot change the overwhelming and justfiable genuine needs of the users at large. Do not try and unnecessorily control the needs and freedom of users, and especially when users have choices. Everyone like their freedom. MS has the option to learn it soon enough, or learn it the hard way. This OS has a fare chance to become an epic failure. There are a lot of things MS has got right in this OS, but do not put a deaf ear to your users just yet, even before they have not even boarded your ship. I know by MS is just trying to play Apple over here but who like apple and its policies except iDiots. The competition of MS is with Android. No one is asking MS to fragment the OS, or allow crapwere, and this has been handled well with Windows Store, but do not try and restrict users on ther fronts which are not really necessory. How would you feel if you are told that a similar approach would be followed in your laptop or desktop OS as well? everyone wants to see their files and organise them as per their liking and needs. This is the way it is done. That is a reality which MS is aware of since more than 30 years, do not unlearn it and especially if you want to target professional users as well. It would be a huge mistake. Had I been aware that this OS lacks even this basic functionality I would not have bought this WP8 for sure, and would have not been writing this. And if MS wants to loose the users like me than its MS's choice or else it needs to act very fast.
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  23. Charles Roddie's Avatar
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    7 Posts
    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    @ToneZone
    • As you yourself stated, the “true” problem is the sandboxing of apps, or more precisely:
    • WP’s concept of isolated (WP7) or local (WP8) storage, meaning:
      • Every app has its own dedicated space on the filesystem, which is entirely inaccessible to any and every other app.
      • 3rd party apps can write to and modify only those files which reside in their own dedicated space on the filesystem. Even the SD card and WP’s library folders (documents, videos and music folders) are off limits.

    • WP’s insistence that an app must have associated itself with a particular file type, say a *.3ds file, if the app expects to be able to do anything with a *.3ds file. Want to upload a *.3ds file to DropBox from your SD card? Currently impossible, unless DropBox is associated with *.3ds files (and every other conceivable file extension), which is just silly.

    The above are the root causes of all the problems people have expressed so far.
    Excellent summary of the issues!
    I’m not saying that a file manager is a terrible idea, or that a file manager can under no circumstances be part of a solution. I am saying that invoking the word “file manager” doesn’t say anything about how the above issues would be addressed. Hence, doing so contributes nothing towards stating how the problems mentioned would be resolved.
    Why I am very supportive of requests that WP8 should have a file manager is not that I want to use a file manager but that to have a file manager (as a regular app) would require the problems you identified to be addressed. Ability to create a 3rd party file manager which can access at least one public location is a test case that the OS is giving apps adequate priviledges for them to work with user files.
    As I said, I can think of a few solutions that don’t require a dedicated file manager app. I’ll give you just one example:
    First, Microsoft should add a single shared folder that is programmatically and fully accessible by any app. I’ll call it the “Shared” folder. I imagine it would also show up when the device is plugged into a USB host (as do the other library folders). IE would also require a slight tweak, as to save downloaded files of an unassociated type in this folder. Apps like DropBox would do the same, and could also upload files from here. This solves all our download problems and some of the upload problems without a dedicated file manager app.
    I am completely behind this suggestion, which would fix the core problems with file accessibility on WP8. (Even read-only access would be something!)
    We should admit though that although we may not care about file managers per se, this suggestion would allow anyone to write a file manager for WP8, which manages files in this shared folder.
    Second, Microsoft should introduce a new component to the SDK and encourage developers to use it wherever lists of files are displayed.
    Also seconded!
    Just do these two things and they will have solved most of the problems with WP8 IMO.
  24. chait92's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1 Posts
    #74  
    yes...definitely
  25. enriq's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1 Posts
    #75  
    yes , pls ...very important apps for smart phone
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