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  1. John20212's Avatar
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       #1  
    Microsoft needs to put in safeguards so that nobody can completely pull an app from the store and deprive people who already bought it (or downloaded it for free apps) from using it.

    Nothing short of a court order should be sufficient to steal apps from people who bought them. And in case of a court order people who paid for them should be fully refunded when the app is pulled without having to ask for a refund.
  2. PB_H's Avatar
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    #2  
    You mean when it's no longer published.
    You're getting into a legal landmine, you can buy a book and have it for a week or years and if you loose
    it and it's no longer published do you expect them to publish it if you can't find another copy ? No, that would be absurd.

    I did find out that backed up apps that were no longer published when I reset my phone reinstalled, that's why I always backup
    an app when I install a new one. I may not get them back if I accidently delete it, but if I reset my phone I will.
  3. iamtim's Avatar
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    #3  
    I'm pretty certain that the T&Cs to which you agree when you purchase an app (and I'm also referring to those you purchase for $0.00) state that the app can be pulled from the Store at any time. It's kind-of hard to provide legal protection to prevent something to which you explicitly agreed.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the legalese actually said that your license for the software (since I'm pretty sure with Microsoft you never actually own any software, you're only purchasing a license to use it) expires should an app get pulled from the Store. I think I'm going to have to research that.
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  4. marcomura's Avatar
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    #4  
    This is one of the worst thing of the WP ecosystem.
    Without a way to backup apps, preventing you to redownload an app you paid is literally a crime.
  5. PB_H's Avatar
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    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcomura View Post
    This is one of the worst thing of the WP ecosystem.
    Without a way to backup apps, preventing you to redownload an app you paid is literally a crime.
    You can back up apps, go to backup in system/settings and save stuff the cloud. I've deleted plenty of apps I've paid for
    and I've installed them for free when I decided to reinstall them, what am I missing in this equation?
    BTW it's a use license, you don't own them.
  6. tgp
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    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by PB_H View Post
    You can back up apps, go to backup in system/settings and save stuff the cloud. I've deleted plenty of apps I've paid for
    and I've installed them for free when I decided to reinstall them, what am I missing in this equation?
    BTW it's a use license, you don't own them.
    But isn't it actually reinstalled from the Store? Microsoft checks your account and sees you've already paid for the app, and it will be reinstalled. I'm not sure on this, but I don't believe an app will be reinstalled if it's no longer published in the Store.
    I have a Nexus 4, an iPhone 5, and a Lumia 520, and I like them all. Is something wrong with me? (I really should edit my signature sometime. I have only 1 of these 3 phones anymore, and even that one is mostly unused because it's been superseded by its big brother!)
  7. PB_H's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by tgp View Post
    But isn't it actually reinstalled from the Store? Microsoft checks your account and sees you've already paid for the app, and it will be reinstalled. I'm not sure on this, but I don't believe an app will be reinstalled if it's no longer published in the Store.
    True and Not true I have nokiaupdates app, it hasn't been published for well over a month. 10 days ago I reset my phone to factory
    settings and I backup my phone after I install new apps so at some point before or after it was last published I saved it along with all my other apps
    to the cloud/ SkyDrive. So it's not from the store I guess but it is saved.
    When I finished resetting the phone, it populated my list of apps along with several other apps ( 1 more that I know of) that are no longer published. Apps like
    Nokia Camera & Nokia Reading which are either not available in my region ( Nokia Reading) or "This app is not available for your phone" like Nokia Camera (I have an 810) stayed at pending so I had to use a Wi-Fi proxy to reinstall those but apps that are no longer published like nokiaupdates that I had saved way back, reinstalled.

    I contacted the publisher of nokiaupdates and he said it had been pulled from the store as a free app awhile ago
    but resubmitted as a paid app perhaps that's why it reinstalled, because it was not a paid app and when I first
    installed it on August 11 it was only a free app at the time
    Last edited by PB_H; 11-27-2013 at 10:05 PM.
  8. tgp
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    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by PB_H View Post
    Not true I have nokiaupdates app, it hasn't been published for several months, 10 days ago I reset my phone to factory
    settings and I backup my phone after I install new apps so at some point after it was last published I saved it along with all my other apps
    When I finished resisting the phone it populated my list of apps along with several other apps that are no longer published. Apps like
    Nokia Camera, Nokia Reading which are either not available in my region ( Nokia Reading) or "This app is not available for your phone" like Nokia Camera
    (I have an 810) stayed at pending so I had to use a Wi-Fi proxy to reinstall those but apps that are no longer published like nokiaupdates that I had saved way back, reinstalled.
    OK thanks, I just learned something!

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    I have a Nexus 4, an iPhone 5, and a Lumia 520, and I like them all. Is something wrong with me? (I really should edit my signature sometime. I have only 1 of these 3 phones anymore, and even that one is mostly unused because it's been superseded by its big brother!)
  9. marcomura's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by PB_H View Post
    You can back up apps, go to backup in system/settings and save stuff the cloud. I've deleted plenty of apps I've paid for
    and I've installed them for free when I decided to reinstall them, what am I missing in this equation?
    You are not backing up your apps, you are backing up your apps list. The list of the apps you have installed.
    This doesn't allow you to reinstall an app after it has been pulled from the store. This is what you're missing in that equation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PB_H View Post
    BTW it's a use license, you don't own them.
    Yes, and I expect to have paid for a lifetime use license, not a license that can expire tomorrow.
  10. jhoff80's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by tgp View Post
    OK thanks, I just learned something!
    Yeah, you 'learned something' that is entirely false.
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  11. PB_H's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcomura View Post
    You are not backing up your apps, you are backing up your apps list. The list of the apps you have installed.
    This doesn't allow you to reinstall an app after it has been pulled from the store. This is what you're missing in that equation.

    Yes, and I expect to have paid for a lifetime use license, not a license that can expire tomorrow.
    And it's like when you stream a movie that is a use license and it is for a limited amount of time and you don't get to see it a lifetime
    I "get it" that you'd like it for a lifetime but that's not what you are paying for -apparently. Time to read the license I guess.
    Last edited by PB_H; 11-27-2013 at 09:55 PM.
  12. PB_H's Avatar
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    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    yeah, you 'learned something' that is entirely false.

    oh.
    Last edited by PB_H; 11-27-2013 at 09:55 PM.
  13. link68759's Avatar
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    #13  
    Apps pulled from the store cannot be reinstalled. Period. Apps can be hidden from the store, and hidden apps can be reinstalled.

    I have the 820, I have xaps saved to the SD card. You can't install a xap without internet- it won't let you. When you connect to the internet, WP checks your xap against the store. If it has been pulled, it will not install.

    Which is complete BS, btw. I understand not hosting pulled apps in the store, but I backed it up myself and am prevented from using even my own personal backup. Dumb.
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  14. John20212's Avatar
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       #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by PB_H View Post
    And it's like when you stream a movie that is a use license and it is for a limited amount of time and you don't get to see it a lifetime
    I "get it" that you'd like it for a lifetime but that's not what you are paying for -apparently. Time to read the license I guess.
    Streaming a movie is something completely different to actually buying a piece of software. And streaming a movie is not really a term, you can either rent the digital movie in which case you have access to it for a certain time period (e.g. 24 hours) or you can buy a digital movie in which case I would assume that I own it as if I bought it on DVD, i.e. I can watch it whenever I want for as long as I want.
    When you buy a piece of software or an app you are buying it not renting it; in legal terms with Microsoft software you are buying a perpetual license to use the software.
  15. John20212's Avatar
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       #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcomura View Post
    ....
    Yes, and I expect to have paid for a lifetime use license, not a license that can expire tomorrow.
    ^^this; in other words with most Microsoft software you are getting a perpetual license to use it (e.g. office software [not 365 version]). I haven't read the WP app purchase license terms but I would expect that I am getting a perpetual license to use the app and not a license that can be revoked at any time for any reason whatsoever; actually based on UK consumer protection legislation terms like that ^[bold] would most likely not be enforceable, in other words if challenged the court would most likely strike them down.
  16. John20212's Avatar
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       #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by PB_H View Post
    You mean when it's no longer published.
    You're getting into a legal landmine, you can buy a book and have it for a week or years and if you loose
    it and it's no longer published do you expect them to publish it if you can't find another copy ? No, that would be absurd.
    .......
    You can't be comparing tangible and intangible personal property, each fall under different legal rules. Moreover you own the book, with software you often have a perpetual license to use it. Since Microsoft does not provide an easy way for users to create their own backup of the app install files that can then be used anytime in the future under the license you own, then Microsoft is responsible for maintaining access to those install files for users that own a license. They can't simply remove access to the files for users that have license to use them, just because they no longer wish to sell the app to new users.
  17. John20212's Avatar
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       #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by link68759 View Post
    Apps pulled from the store cannot be reinstalled. Period. Apps can be hidden from the store, and hidden apps can be reinstalled.

    I have the 820, I have xaps saved to the SD card. You can't install a xap without internet- it won't let you. When you connect to the internet, WP checks your xap against the store. If it has been pulled, it will not install.

    Which is complete BS, btw. I understand not hosting pulled apps in the store, but I backed it up myself and am prevented from using even my own personal backup. Dumb.
    Completely agree, I would have no problem with pulling apps from the store if there was a way to have your own copy of the apps you own and then if you need to, to simply reinstall them from your own backup. The problem is Microsoft is all too happy to kill apps without a way for people who own them to be able to reinstall them. Which is completely unacceptable.
  18. iamtim's Avatar
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcomura View Post
    Yes, and I expect to have paid for a lifetime use license, not a license that can expire tomorrow.
    You should read the legalese. The license can expire at any time as dictated by the app publisher. This is what you agreed to by purchasing and/or downloading the app. It doesn't really matter what you expect, that's the terms of the license.

    If that's not OK with you, your only option is to not purchase and/or download apps.

    EDIT: Note I'm making no judgment as to whether that's good or bad or whatever. It is what it is.
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  19. tgp
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcomura View Post
    You are not backing up your apps, you are backing up your apps list. The list of the apps you have installed.
    This doesn't allow you to reinstall an app after it has been pulled from the store. This is what you're missing in that equation.
    Ok I was thoroughly confused! I've factory reset and restored my WPs plenty of times, but as far as I know I didn't have any apps that are no longer in the store, so I had no experience. Your answer is what I expected to be correct (obviously, it's essentially what I posted earlier), but until I had other confirmation I had no reason to believe otherwise. Thanks for clearing it up for me!
    I have a Nexus 4, an iPhone 5, and a Lumia 520, and I like them all. Is something wrong with me? (I really should edit my signature sometime. I have only 1 of these 3 phones anymore, and even that one is mostly unused because it's been superseded by its big brother!)
  20. iamtim's Avatar
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    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by John20212 View Post
    The problem is Microsoft is all too happy to kill apps without a way for people who own them to be able to reinstall them.
    First off, you don't own the app; you only have a license to use it. Secondly, if you read the legalese it's not Microsoft who kills the apps; that's totally on the app publisher. The license exists as long as the publisher publishes the app. Once they pull it, the license ends. Microsoft simply acts as a... distribution center of sorts, with their own license to use and distribute from the publisher.
  21. John20212's Avatar
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       #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by iamtim View Post
    First off, you don't own the app; you only have a license to use it. Secondly, if you read the legalese it's not Microsoft who kills the apps; that's totally on the app publisher. The license exists as long as the publisher publishes the app. Once they pull it, the license ends. Microsoft simply acts as a... distribution center of sorts, with their own license to use and distribute from the publisher.

    Reading the terms in full [http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/st...ms-of-service] they are actually rather vague on pulling applications from the marketplace, consumer license duration and type, recourse when an application is terminated, difference between a paid and free applications, etc...; all that the terms state is that: "If Microsoft disables the ability to use the applications on your devices pursuant to your agreement with Microsoft, any associated license rights will terminate."

    But the key part when reading any overall vague statements like that is: "Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation" so in other words the laws you need to consider are the consumer protection laws and contract laws of your country.
    And as I mentioned above "a license that can be revoked at any time for any reason whatsoever"; is extremely unlikely to stand up to legal scrutiny, as far as UK (and most likely EU, but would have to check the relevant Directives) consumer protection legislation goes. At the very least the consumer should be entitled to a refund in cases of paid applications being terminated, because the license terms do not expressly stipulate any limits to the license duration, except that it can be revoked by Microsoft at will, which most likely would fall under the designation of an unconscionable term.
    On the other hand countries like the US where the consumer pretty much gets what is in the contract and where the consumer is not as protected, it might be a slightly different story, however I do not recall any consumer protection specific legislation from when I was studying NY state law few years ago.

    [disclaimer: the above is not legal advice, just opinion and facts purely for informational purposes]

    The bottom line is pulling applications from the marketplace without having a system in place for past users to re-install them is just a bad business practice and it does nothing to build consumer trust in the WP marketplace. Nobody wants a store where bought software disappears without warning, causing problems for people who depended and enjoyed it.

    If Microsoft wants to build consumer trust in its WP and Windows 8 stores, this is not the way to do it.
  22. marcomura's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by iamtim View Post
    You should read the legalese. The license can expire at any time as dictated by the app publisher. This is what you agreed to by purchasing and/or downloading the app. It doesn't really matter what you expect, that's the terms of the license.

    If that's not OK with you, your only option is to not purchase and/or download apps.

    EDIT: Note I'm making no judgment as to whether that's good or bad or whatever. It is what it is.
    YOU should read the legalese, it seems that you talk for assumptions without have effectively read it.
    As John20212 has pointed out, the terms about use license are very vague and it doesn't mention at all the variability of the user license time-duration caused by pulling off the app from the store. It covers only the case when Microsoft decides to disable an app (I don't know if it ever did that).
    In other words, it doesn't say neither directly or indirectly that "The license can expire at any time as dictated by the app publisher".

    Also, again as John20212 has pointed out, it say "Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the application only as expressly permitted in this agreement." and I think that all the modern and civilized countries have laws to protect people for being fraud by buying an unspecified-time license that can be expire without forewarning 2 hours later.
    But this is only my assumption, I don't feel like reading my country's laws.
  23. neo158's Avatar
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    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by John20212 View Post
    Microsoft needs to put in safeguards so that nobody can completely pull an app from the store and deprive people who already bought it (or downloaded it for free apps) from using it.

    Nothing short of a court order should be sufficient to steal apps from people who bought them. And in case of a court order people who paid for them should be fully refunded when the app is pulled without having to ask for a refund.
    If it's in your purchase history on windowsphone.com then you can reinstall it, I did that with the BBC News app that was pulled from the store.
  24. marcomura's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by neo158 View Post
    If it's in your purchase history on windowsphone.com then you can reinstall it, I did that with the BBC News app that was pulled from the store.
    After an app has been pulled off, you can't reinstall it. In the purchase history, there is a label "App is no longer published" instead of the link "Reinstall".
    Probably you tried with a hidden app.
  25. #25  
    Can i just add a few to the mix, ill name a few apps one a long time ago sky mobile then it was pulled as sky wanted the name changed then when it was put back on the marketplace it was now a free app but it cost me 79p so who cares. Next swapchat i paid for that it got pulled as whoever didn't want it on there, now should i then screw over the app developer for my money back because i cant download it again? No it wasn't their fault it got pulled and i want them to continue developing apps. Next example i paid for splinter cell on wp7 but cant use it on wp8 shall i ask for my money back as most wp7 apps still work no i changed my phone so i got over it. Do you really want to download a app that for instance gets pulled and 2 years later no longer works with the latest os update? Or would you ask for your money back then?
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