[brmiller1976]

Windows Phone is NOT your old iPhone. It doesn't have static grids of icons, an "app" that covers every functional requirement (rather than integrated features), a user model built around syncing with a desktop PC for most upgrades/media, and a legacy Mosaic-style browser. If you must have those things -- and it's more important than having a streamlined, modern UI with a focus on important data instead of sorting through dozens of extraneous notifications -- WP might not be for you.

Windows Phone is NOT your old Android. If rooting your device, having 17 browsers with customizable kernels and sixteen-layer-deep dropdown menus, replaceable kernels, a bunch of big ugly widgets on the home screen, and 300,000 apps that all look and function completely differently from app to app are more important to you than a stable, streamlined, efficient and malware-free experience -- WP might not be for you.

Incidentally, both the iOS and Android user models are WRONG for a majority of users. That's why Windows Phone even exists, and why it has opportunity.

Trying to make your new WP into your old iOS or Android device is the wrong approach. If you bought it for what it is, you should be learning how to migrate from the 1980s-style "icon/desktop" form factor to the Modern UI form factor. No more need for a "Facebook Messenger App" -- it's built-in. No more need for clicking the "back arrow" 16 times to get to the page you want in the browser -- just tap "recent pages" and then tap on the page you want. And so on.

If you aren't willing to do this, you're embarking on an exercise in frustration, just like a Mac guy who buys a Dell and then complains that it's not the same as his MacBook, or the iOS guy who wonders what happened to iTunes on his new BlackBerry Bold 9900.

[independentvolume]

So much is broken in wp8. Sickening.

[iamtim]

...or the new Windows 8 desktop user who complains that it's not Windows 7. I'm right with you on all of that, OP.

[Winning Guy]

So much is broken in wp8. Sickening.

I know huh? Like how December isn't in the calendar. How does that even happen?

Oh wait... that's not WP. My bad.

[fardream]

But they cannot even do screen orientation lock and playlist.....

[TaliZorah]

But they cannot even do screen orientation lock and playlist.....

This one always gets me... people complain about screen orientation. ALL iPhones and most Androids don't even have landscape mode for the home screen. Why is it such a big deal that WP doesn't either? Some apps do, some don't. This is the same across the board it's not JUST WP.

[fardream]

This one always gets me... people complain about screen orientation. ALL iPhones and most Androids don't even have landscape mode for the home screen. Why is it such a big deal that WP doesn't either? Some apps do, some don't. This is the same across the board it's not JUST WP.

Yes, but sometimes we do lie on the side and a systemwide lock would be handy, not to mention that apps like messaging doesn't support lock.... It's annoying. And windows phone has so many annoying things

[Winning Guy]

WP has a different way of doing things. If you're migrating from a different OS, and expect it to be the same, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

There are a bunch of things that would annoy me if I was using an iPhone or Android phone. But that's because I'm so used to a workflow that is built around Windows Phone.

If your workflow is built around a different OS's strengths, you'll be annoyed unless you change the way you work.

[Wyn6]

My playlists work just fine. I have 9 of them all sync'd to the phone.

[fardream]

My playlists work just fine. I have 9 of them all sync'd to the phone.

try creating one?

[Joelist]

I really like the OP.

A LOT of the complaints I have read in this forum have, when studied, come down to people getting frustrated because WP does not do things the same way as Android and/or iOS. But when you just find out how WP does it usually the WP way is a lot more efficient and simpler even.

[brmiller1976]

try creating one?

I have created seventy-two playlists, made up entirely of XBox streaming music pass titles, on my Lumia 920 so far. The latest is a playlist of Thomas Dolby's EXCELLENT "Live in Tokyo 2012" album. Highly recommended.

[brmiller1976]

So much is broken in wp8. Sickening.

How do you know? According to your profile, you're not even using one.

[bokchoy1]

Trying to make your new WP into your old iOS or Android device is the wrong approach. If you bought it for what it is, you should be learning how to migrate from the 1980s-style "icon/desktop" form factor to the Modern UI form factor. No more need for a "Facebook Messenger App" -- it's built-in. No more need for clicking the "back arrow" 16 times to get to the page you want in the browser -- just tap "recent pages" and then tap on the page you want. And so on.

I agree for the most part. Sure, the WP way of doing things is great. But it also has limitations, things which I think the "old way" does better. Change is good - but only when it's an improvement.

For example, the browser. This is my pet peeve. Recent pages isn't enough. What if you want to find something from a long time ago? There's no "recent search" and scrolling lists of 100 visited sites (without fast scrolling!) is annoying. And why, why are there no forward and back buttons? Why? I use UC Browser, which has more features like a "legacy Mosaic based browser". Alternate apps like a dedicated Facebook Messenger are often more fully featured than what's integrated. A lot of people like 3rd party Twitter clients, for instance.

I love WP but hate some things done in the name of simplicity. The browser features in particular are not beyond average users and hinder more than help. What I want, is a "streamlined, modern UI with a focus on important data" that is capable of more than the basics, whether integrated or through 3rd party apps. That is what I hope WP will become. It's not wrong to want a new WP device to replace something else. I think this is why some people bought and returned WP devices. IMHO, they have potential. But they aren't capable replacements AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

- a Lumia 710 owner who has never had an iPhone or Android

[brmiller1976]

What if you want to find something from a long time ago?

Save it as a favorite.

why, why are there no forward and back buttons? Why?

For the same reason there is no DOS prompt. Forward and back buttons are as obsolete as floppy drives, Mosaic, and CRT displays.

I think this is why some people bought and returned WP devices. IMHO, they have potential. But they aren't capable replacements AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

For users who want a propellerhead phone with a bunch of deep, highly specialized legacy functionality, Android is already out there (and super-cheap).

I think it is honestly that simple. I'd hate to see Windows Phone defaced with front and back buttons and other legacy concepts just to appeal to people who would be better served either by relearning a better way to do things (the Windows way) or grabbing an Android device.

Imagine if Apple had embedded the CP/M prompt in the original Macintosh so people didn't have to use "that mouse thingy," or if Windows 7 included provisions for "Program Groups" and shutting off the task bar. It's the same thing. It's time for users to abandon all those obsolete things you're listing and learn a better way.

That's what WP8 is all about. If it's going to be an operating system laced with obsolete 3-decade-old UI from the iOS and Android camps, it's going to fail automatically, since that would make it a "me too" OS (and harm its complete rethinking of how a device should function).

[Wyn6]

try creating one?

I just created one called Test with four artists and 36 songs. So, the issue is you guys aren't able to create them or haven't figured out how?

[fardream]

I know how to create one..... But designing it that way is out of my understanding

[socialcarpet]

[independentvolume]

How do you know? According to your profile, you're not even using one.

822 here. Gmail is sketchy, Bluetooth works when it wants too, as does Xbox music. The store is double charging people.... I'm sure I'll find more. So yes, I do know. I call it like I see it.

[bokchoy1]

Forward and back buttons are as obsolete... I'd hate to see Windows Phone defaced with front and back buttons and other legacy concepts just to appeal to people who would be better served either by relearning a better way to do things (the Windows way) or grabbing an Android device.

That's kind of my argument, that the lack of legacy forward/back buttons is not necessarily better. For example, if there are two links on a page you want to visit, you must either press and hold to open a new tab, use the hardware back key or use the recent list. The recent list requires 3 taps. The hardware key doesn't work within IE if you multitask. Switching between tabs also requires 3 taps. None are as convenient or intuitive as a back button or the edge swipe gestures in some 3rd party browsers.

That's what WP8 is all about. If it's going to be an operating system laced with obsolete 3-decade-old UI from the iOS and Android camps, it's going to fail automatically, since that would make it a "me too" OS (and harm its complete rethinking of how a device should function).

Like I said, I support change only if it's for the better. Most of the WP UI is better in my opinion. But parts of it feel more like an ideal than a truly functional form. While rethinking how a device should function, we shouldn't make things harder to do. There's still room for improvement.

Good debate, by the way.

[vedichymn]

Windows Phone is NOT your old iPhone. It doesn't have static grids of icons, an "app" that covers every functional requirement (rather than integrated features), a user model built around syncing with a desktop PC for most upgrades/media, and a legacy Mosaic-style browser. If you must have those things -- and it's more important than having a streamlined, modern UI with a focus on important data instead of sorting through dozens of extraneous notifications -- WP might not be for you.

Windows Phone is NOT your old Android. If rooting your device, having 17 browsers with customizable kernels and sixteen-layer-deep dropdown menus, replaceable kernels, a bunch of big ugly widgets on the home screen, and 300,000 apps that all look and function completely differently from app to app are more important to you than a stable, streamlined, efficient and malware-free experience -- WP might not be for you.

Incidentally, both the iOS and Android user models are WRONG for a majority of users. That's why Windows Phone even exists, and why it has opportunity.

Trying to make your new WP into your old iOS or Android device is the wrong approach. If you bought it for what it is, you should be learning how to migrate from the 1980s-style "icon/desktop" form factor to the Modern UI form factor. No more need for a "Facebook Messenger App" -- it's built-in. No more need for clicking the "back arrow" 16 times to get to the page you want in the browser -- just tap "recent pages" and then tap on the page you want. And so on.

If you aren't willing to do this, you're embarking on an exercise in frustration, just like a Mac guy who buys a Dell and then complains that it's not the same as his MacBook, or the iOS guy who wonders what happened to iTunes on his new BlackBerry Bold 9900.

This honestly just seems like an attempt to gloss over the current shortfalls in WP8.

I've been a Windows Phone user since day one, and WP8 is a step back even from the initial 7.0 release in a lot of ways. It has a lot of promise, but honestly a lot of the new stuff just seems half-baked or doesn't work at all.

For example, saying it doesn't have "a user model built around syncing with a desktop PC for most upgrades/media" is a nice way of saying "the sync software is super buggy, and doesn't support most of the features that the Zune software did". If there was an alternative that DID offer those features, I'd be all for it, but the reality is that doesn't exist.

I love the new hardware, and am a huge windows phone fan, but honestly this has been a pretty disappointing debut.

[gsquared]

So much is broken in wp8. Sickening.

Name three things that a majority of WP users would agree are broken...

[brmiller1976]

This honestly just seems like an attempt to gloss over the current shortfalls in WP8.

I've been a Windows Phone user since day one, and WP8 is a step back even from the initial 7.0 release in a lot of ways. It has a lot of promise, but honestly a lot of the new stuff just seems half-baked or doesn't work at all.

For example, saying it doesn't have "a user model built around syncing with a desktop PC for most upgrades/media" is a nice way of saying "the sync software is super buggy, and doesn't support most of the features that the Zune software did".

I disagree.
Desktop sync is legacy tech that should be abandoned. The future is in the cloud and smart glass. I wish Microsoft had removed the option to "desktop sync" altogether. They should delete it and tell users to deploy via Skydrive ams streaming media.

Desktop syncing is a concept from Atari days in the early 80s.

[fardream]

I disagree.
Desktop sync is legacy tech that should be abandoned. The future is in the cloud and smart glass. I wish Microsoft had removed the option to "desktop sync" altogether. They should delete it and tell users to deploy via Skydrive ams streaming media.

Desktop syncing is a concept from Atari days in the early 80s.

but cloud sync doesn't work. It doesn't sync playlists created on the phone (at least for me), and not to mention managing the playlists with the phone is very difficult.
Legacy or not, we need a working solution

[iamtim]

Desktop sync is legacy tech that should be abandoned.

I was with you on your original post, but you're going a little far for me here. I want my "stuff" stored locally and I want to move it back and forth amongst all my devices at my behest, regardless of whether I have connectivity or not.