View Poll Results: What do you think why OEMs not including quad cores on WP?
- 50. You may not vote on this poll
To just create one more in-between generation of phones.
They dont have capability to do so.
Windows Phone 8 dont need it.
Multiple Choice Poll.
- 11-02-2012, 08:35 PM #26
Trouble isn't coding for multiple cores, it's that the current chipsets don't support LTE (which I find to be somewhat overhyped, especially with data caps).
A WP OEM could release a quad-core 4G Windows Phone on T-Mobile right now that runs on HSPA+, but it wouldn't support LTE (so people would complain). Plus, it would be a specialized/"exclusive" phone only sold on one carrier, which is a bad idea.
Once Qualcomm gets Snapdragon Quad core running with LTE and LTE-Advanced, you'll see a whole bunch of quad-core WP8 phones. Promise! :)
11-02-2012, 09:03 PM #29
- 10 Posts
OEMs don't have the capability to do so. In a smart phone all system components are intergrated into one chip (a system on a chip), which in windows phone's case is always made by Qualcomm. For a chip to work with an OS the chip maker needs to write drivers for the whole chip which allows the OS to control it, so OEMs can only work with the chips that are currently supported by WP8, which doesn't include any quad core at the moment.
Now qualcomm only recently released their first quad core chip which is used in the nexus 4, so perhaps it's a shame that it's not supported, but there are reasons for that. This chip doesn't have integrated modem making it more expensive for OEMs by requiring a separate modem. Also, Qualcomm supports Android for all of their chips (owing to its wide user base and open source nature) but for WP they only pick certain models in agreement with Microsoft. From what I know this chip will not be supported, but the upcoming quad core chip with an integrated modem will be, possibly in the next major update of WP.
But keep in mind that the current dual core in WP8 is one of the best in the market, second only to the chip in nexus 4 (but probably more efficient). Also, WP will be adding support to other lower end dual cores to enable lower price points and this should come much sooner.
I do expect and hope that Microsoft will start supporting Nvidia chips in WP since they already do in Windows RT which has a shared core, and this whould spice things up and provide more options and make things more competitive with Android.
- 11-02-2012, 09:12 PM #30
post in this forum. Hope you find it useful.
11-02-2012, 09:49 PM #31
- 10 Posts
and I just want to add that it's funny that most laptops sold use dual core CPU's (hyper threading doesn't really count), and that's fine for majority of users running complex PC/Mac/Linux applications which are much more optimized for multiple cores. The only time you are limited is if you are doing crazy multi-tasking.
- 11-02-2012, 10:06 PM #32
Hey alzaeem, possibly I still misunderstand you then. I've worked in large teems and been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to get software to scale well across multiple cores. I don't think anybody would pay that kind of money for something that works 'automatically'. This often involves a deliberate effort (depends on the software in question). Like I said in that post, software that uses two threads isn't always easily restructured to make good use of more, and if that isn't achieved, you can throw as many cores at it as you want.... it will never use more than two cores.
11-03-2012, 07:00 AM #33
- 449 Posts
I'd say that is semi-accurate. Everything in software design and development has trade offs. Doing the above can drastically increase code complexity, which in turn can result in more software defects. Then you also have the fact that context switching and thread synchronization can have negative effects on performance (I'm sure its negligible on today's desktop chips, not sure about ARM)
11-03-2012, 07:52 AM #34
- 22 Posts
ill end this discussion right now.. dual cores is what wp8 is designed for, it is optimized to run better than 4 cores with just 2 much as the wp7 was better than 99% of dual cores with just 1 core.. last but most important is PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT BATTERY LIFE.. AND UNTIL THEY CHANGE THE BATTERY TECH IN PHONES ALL A 4 CORE WILL DO IS DRAIN YOUR BATT 2X AS FAST. WHAT DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS??? MORE CORES= MORE POWER CONSUMPTION, WHEN THE BATTERY IS IN MY POCKET can only be so big or hot lol.. My laptop is 3 years old and is dual core i can open 15 web pages at a time most with videos on them and its just fine.. so your wanting a 4x core which is at almost the top of normal(note i said normal/average) PC tech in your phone??? get off your high horse and just CALL someone with it. I love tech but *****ing about something like this is retarded.
- 11-03-2012, 08:08 AM #35
I'd rather have dual-core support, but with little power consumption, lower cost and better execution. This is what Windows Phone 8 hardware has shown thus far. We argued Windows Phone doesn't require dual-core, yet we've got it. That's enough to power the system and provide the consumer more than a silky smooth experience. Could we improve the chips that are used? Sure, and I'm sure future handsets will make use of new innovations and improvements at the component manufacturer. I'd rather see optimisations made in execution and power management, rather than bundling more cores into the equation.
We'll have to see how the OS matures to determine whether quad-core is required. Considering we've yet to have issues with single-core chips (prior to WP8), I doubt we'd be looking to add the extra two anytime soon.
11-03-2012, 11:02 AM #36
- 30 Posts
Keep in mind these are just the first wave of WP8 devices.
The S4 Pro is just an evolution of the S4. I wouldn't be surprised to see quad core WP8's announced early next year. Remember the HTC Zenith rumors?
Definitely debatable if its needed, but it doesn't hurt to be competitive on specs with Android for those who care about that sort of thing.
- 11-03-2012, 12:19 PM #37The S4 Pro is just an evolution of the S4. I wouldn't be surprised to see quad core WP8's announced early next year. Remember the HTC Zenith rumors?
I suspect the Nokia Juggernaut and HTC Zenith would roll out at an event like that. As many phones as they're rolling out for the launch, they still have to keep attention on the platform into 2013.Regards,
Nokia 6188 - AudioVox PPC6600 - HTC 8125 - Lg eXpo GW820 - Lumia 710 - Bring On WP8!
- 11-03-2012, 12:40 PM #38
Last edited by a5cent; 11-03-2012 at 10:01 PM.
- 11-03-2012, 01:03 PM #39
As much as I would like the extra power since I like to think of myself as a power user......
This right here is exactly why I would rather have the dual core over quad. All the power in the world is awesome except when the following apply:
1. Apps aren't optimized for that power meaning it is essentially wasted.
2. I'd rather get a full day of moderate to heavy use out of my phone rather then have to charge my phone 2 or 3 times a day.
TL;DR dual core is just more efficient both for use and power length
- 11-03-2012, 06:11 PM #40
I'd like to write in a fill in poll option by saying most OEMs just haven't prioritized their limited supply of quad core chips for Windows Phones.
Those S4 Pro chips are scarce and, right now, only LG and Meizu have released devices with them. Other OEMs will use the chips for Android devices first since they are better sellers.
On the bright side, you should be happy to know that early benchmarks are out and the Lumia 920 is faster than both iPhone and Android on Sunspider. (Against Android, Lumia wins by a wide margin even pitted up against the next gen quad core S4 Pro.)
By Engadget's numbers:
914 ms on Lumia 920 vs 1,975 on Nexus 4 vs 1,283 on Optimus G (lower scores are better)
So you really have nothing to worry about. Dual core Windows Phone is currently faster than Android by quite a bit if you're a power user and that's what you worry about.
Last edited by Sentimentgx4; 11-03-2012 at 06:22 PM.
- 11-03-2012, 07:31 PM #41
Again, I am just using common sense to try and understand, but according to a5cent, it may just not work that way in real life. While I can accept that, I still don't like it. :happy:
- 11-03-2012, 09:59 PM #42
this thread, researchers have been hacking away at this problem for 20 years, and although progress has been made, we are still nowhere near software automatically exploiting an arbitrary hardware configuration to its fullest (that statement applies to far more than just the general purpose computing cores). Exploiting hardware to its fullest is only possible, if software engineers have the luxury of targeting exactly one precisely defined hardware configuration. It's one of the reasons why current generation console games still look relatively modern, despite the hardware being almost a decade old (the performance characteristics of each and every component in every XBOX are well known and identical). It's also one of the reasons Android devices never seem to get as much out of high-end hardware as they should (because Google can make only few assumptions about the wide range of hardware their OS will end up running on).
You don't have to take my word for it. Any software developer in the world (intermediate to advanced level) will tell you the exact same thing. PG2G is also a very knowledgeable guy and he would tell you no differently.
One last thing you've got mixed up:
11-03-2012, 11:51 PM #43
- 82 Posts
Quad cores from Qualcomm are only JUST coming out, and theres really only a few devices right now that have it: The Optimus G and the Nexus 4. Theres that HTC Butterfly thats only announced for China right now (basically an 5" HTC Note...). I think the Galaxy Note 2 might be using it but im not really sure.
All other quads are either Exynos (Samsung) or Tegra3 based. And in many cases the Snapdragon S4's Krait cores in dual configuration.
The HTC One X+ is going Quad, but i think its using the Tegra3 processor at 1.7ghz.
The Next Galaxy S4 is rumored to have the next gen Exynos processor (quad core) and probably wont make any kind of appearance until later in Q1 2013. Tegra4 is also a next year part so you wont see that either.
there is absolutey no need for quad cores, especialy on a phone. Just like how 1080p resolution is not going to make any kind of difference for the screen because of how small a smartphone screen is. Quad cores on a big destkop/laptop computer is already still being underutilized by everything except the absolute newest games (and thats even stretching it.....) and/or some really hardcore worksation computers (but those costs retarded amounts of money and raw power is key for those)
The whole core situation for Windows was based on the fact that the windows CE core in WP7 did not support multicore. They needed excuses to say why only single core was good enough even though the rest of the world was on dual cores already.
Quads are probably on their way, but to get something out NOW they needed the more abundant Snapdragon S4 pro duals. There IS a rumor that HTC is going to bring out a windows phone based on the hardware on that HTC J Butterfly (who the **** named that thing?? lol) monster.
- 11-04-2012, 09:07 PM #44
WP would not be helped by such an approach. The lion's share of reviews would say "lousy battery life and poor performance out of the box."
11-05-2012, 08:46 AM #45
- 377 Posts
Other than apps not being optimized for too many cores, I speculate that there's another reason: the wait for A15 designs to be out.
MS has been late playing the specs war game with Android. Instead of focusing on catching up on A9 designs or its derivatives, they could take advantage of A15's capability in big.LITTLE configurations and finally catching up.
Of course, I could be wildly mistaken and maybe MS will only show off quad core when the hype goes to big.LITTLE...but I think MS is getting smarter. After all, they did say they are making the 64 bit variant of the next desktop OS in ARM.
- 11-06-2012, 07:23 AM #46
Android is easy. New OS update from 2-2.1 blah blah blah, caused lag. Solution was to update OS again and fix some of the lag. LTE pioneered in android handsets and those become the fastest at browsing the web. However, early LTE radios sucked power very fast. Solution was to turn off LTE radio unless using web. Very easy on android, simple place a quick switch settings icon, or whatever they are called, on start screen. Result is that Android has become the global leader in mobile OS with the biggest app store.
However, if MS pushed out QC before they had integrated low power LTE radios the outcome would be immediate collapse of the entire MS empire. :dry I guess its possible.
- 11-06-2012, 07:38 AM #47
Quad, particularly next-gen quad such as the S4 Pro, next Exynos and any A15-based designs will be helpful to drive the 1080p resolutions. People forget that you need processing power to push out those extra pixels.
Based on that, the 820 and 8S should theoretically perform much better than the HD devices.
- 11-06-2012, 07:40 AM #48
They will. No way they wont. In games you will see significantly better performance with the low res screens than the 720P screens. Unless the game is changing the resolution on the device which I do not even know if that is possible in the API.
- 11-06-2012, 02:22 PM #49
Benchmarks, yes Lumia 920 is ought to win in SunSpider as it has IE10. IE10 wins even over latest Chrome 22 run on Windows 8. But sure it looses in other benchmarks say V8.
But I am not strictly talking about apps optimized for quad cores.
Let me summarize
1. As I am developer working in MS tech, I believe very clearly that soon there will be really-smarter app. You should say next-gen apps that are considerably advanced over the traditional Android & iPhone apps. And yeah apps does not need to explicitly coded for extra cores.
2. But still its all mainly related to multitasking, because ...
3. It should shape as productivity device like Windows8 but in mobile form factor. I honestly feel switching between apps should be quicker. Long pressing back button takes time.
4. Lament because there are no such quad core Windows Phone 8 device & yes will see them in future for sure.
- 11-07-2012, 03:25 PM #50
In fact, Power5 got it exactly right, as it just so happens that "changing the resolution" is exactly what most games do (more relevant for fast 3D games like hydro-thunder than a simple tic-tac-toe game).
Of course, the resolution of a device's display never actually changes. Instead, games simply render their content at much lower resolutions. Virtually all fast-paced/highly animated/3D games render their frames at half WVGA resolutions (i.e. 400x240 pixels). On WP7 games often used even lower resolutions, but I don't expect games to go any lower on WP8. Up-scaling to the devices physical display resolution is done by a hardware scaler, and is therefore computationally "free of charge".
Thanks to this functionality, game developers can choose to lower rendering resolution in exchange for higher frame rates and vice verse, which gives them more flexibility to tune their graphics engines. This also allows developers to target a single resolution, independent of the varying physical display resolutions that may exist, and that is exactly what developers are doing.
Because every high-performance game will determine its own sub-WVGA rendering resolution, which is likely to be very similar (if not identical) across all handsets, it is safe to expect games to perform almost identically, independent of varying physical display resolution. That includes WVGA devices like the 820 and the 8S. This ensures all customers get identical frame rates and a consistently good gaming experience across all devices. I think that is a pretty awesome feature.
I couldn't find anything simple to back this up with, but Microsoft has documented the feature in the WP7 and WP8 SDK (see DXGI_SWAP_CHAIN_DESC1.Scaling)
Last edited by a5cent; 11-11-2012 at 10:18 AM. Reason: Added last paragraph