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  1. andrelamont's Avatar
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       #1  
    Hey Fido...come on back...here boy <whistle>


    I've done my share of being upset at Nokia for their presentation and lack of specifics on release dates, carriers support, pricing and blah blah blah. I have now changed my mind and believe that MS sort of backed them into a corner.

    I now believe that WP8 is just not ready yet hence the reason why Nokia was so adamant that reviewers on navigate to specific sections of the phone.

    I base this 'speculation' on:
    - The WP8 sdk is late according to MS previous releases of SDK. May 2011 all developers had access to the 7.5 SDK even though the product was released in Nov 2011

    -Joe B, coming on stage and having nothing to talk again about tile re-sizing like he did in June, and the people's hub

    - MS only letting tier 1 or 2 development houses gain access to the SDK on Sept 12.

    - Paul Thourott/ Mary Jo being told by source that June Conference was going to be the be revealed but things changed and hence the 2x reminders by Joe B that user features would come later

    - June 2012, MS employees working on WP8 were told to cancel their vacations....at least according to this person


    So I'll call the dogs off on Nokia as Samsung didn't show anything, nor pricing...nor carriers either.

    The OEM are ready to go and they are held up, so I can see why some CEO type would just say show something as they see the Apple train steaming their way. Personally I would have done something different by that just me. Amazon had their press conference and the Kindle Fire HD 4G LTE will not be ready until Nov 20th

    Also, this is not a MS bashing post as I understand the software development cycle, and things always pop up that were planned or accounted for. Shrinking down Windows to a phone sounds massive! There's a reason why Apple choose a new OS and added features over time. Not saying which appoach is better nor do I care. so I'll just wait and watch my beloved Cleveland Browns get trashed for 13 years in a row...

    Good news (my spin ) when MS reveals the OS they will be ready to say...now go buy it!!
  2. andrelamont's Avatar
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       #2  
    Oh...as a current WP7 owner, it only makes logical sense that the 7.8 will take some time to get here. I can easily see program managers re-assigning people to get the WP8 out the door.

    Not saying this is gospel but I am bracing myself for March 2013 for 7.8 as the fall holidays are coming. At my job, senior workers who have 5-6 weeks of vacation usually reserve them for Decemeber and we never get much work done that month. So if 7.8 is not ready in November...I expect it to be ready in March 2013.

    p.s. I have no problems being proved wrong :) and will take my 7.8 thank you very much
  3. jimski's Avatar
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    #3  
    As with most projects at Microsoft, there are two completely different teams working on WP8 and WP7.8. My guess is WP7.8 is done (enhancements were mapped out long ago) and waiting for WP8 to be released. Now, what the Carriers choose to do with the update is an entirely different story.

    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro
    Nokia Lumia 900 - OS: 7.10.8112.7 - Firmware: 2175.1002.8112.12084
    HTC Surround - OS: 7.10.8107.79 - Firmware: 2250.21.40500.502
  4. pjs37's Avatar
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    #4  
    I agree. That's why I said MS dropped the ball more so than Nokia. I think the deivces are solid smart phone devices. I think they are good hardware. All my issues seem to lie at the foot of the software and Nokia's reliance on MS for most of that.
  5. Mitlov's Avatar
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    #5  
    When Samsung didn't turn on the Ativ S, the most rabid Nokia fans accused them of not having commitment to WP8.

    When Nokia didn't let people play with their phones, the most rabid Samsung fanboys accused them of faking all its nice features.

    In reality, neither of them were to blame. Something is rotten in the state of Washington. The WP8 development and release is being handled NOTHING like Windows 8's (features unveiled, thorough testing, months with developers, concrete release date set months in advance). It doesn't smell right.
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    Winterfang and brmiller1976 like this.
  6. #6  
    Let's try to give this a positive spin. How about MS *might* have WP8 almost ready because once Windows 8 went RTM, there aren't many things that may change core wise.

    But after Mango fiasco last year, MSFT might have become a little clever and thought

    "Whoa, let's wait this time. Let big hardware announcements take place first to disrupt the iPhone 5 launch. Let's see what "software" enhancements it has. Surely we will have better choice on hardware than iPhone 5. But if we could sneak in a feature or two from software side in 3-4 weeks time since we have native code with us, then we *maybe* able to launch by saying we have almost the same software feature, but we have extensive hardwares as you've already seen"

    Apollo turning tables?

    Also may I add that Apollo 8 was launched and landed in December 1968.
    It might be a little cheesy, but WP8 Apollo might be lauched Nov 2nd and land on shelves Dec 2012? Any takers? - this fits "Q4"
    cckgz4 likes this.
  7. thed's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by rockstarzzz View Post
    Let's try to give this a positive spin. How about MS *might* have WP8 almost ready because once Windows 8 went RTM, there aren't many things that may change core wise.

    But after Mango fiasco last year, MSFT might have become a little clever and thought

    "Whoa, let's wait this time. Let big hardware announcements take place first to disrupt the iPhone 5 launch. Let's see what "software" enhancements it has. Surely we will have better choice on hardware than iPhone 5. But if we could sneak in a feature or two from software side in 3-4 weeks time since we have native code with us, then we *maybe* able to launch by saying we have almost the same software feature, but we have extensive hardwares as you've already seen"

    Apollo turning tables?

    Also may I add that Apollo 8 was launched and landed in December 1968.
    It might be a little cheesy, but WP8 Apollo might be lauched Nov 2nd and land on shelves Dec 2012? Any takers? - this fits "Q4"
    Unfortunately, that doesn't explain the alarming way that they've handled the SDK release. To me, the fact that you have to apply to get a copy of the SDK is a huge red flag and proof that it's not ready for prime time yet. They still haven't announced when the SDK will be available to the general public, or even to all registered paying developers!

    They can still add consumer features without revealing them in the SDK. Asking developers to pay $100 a year and then making them wait so long for an SDK is unacceptable in my opinion.
    geekmaster likes this.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by thed View Post
    Unfortunately, that doesn't explain the alarming way that they've handled the SDK release. To me, the fact that you have to apply to get a copy of the SDK is a huge red flag and proof that it's not ready for prime time yet. They still haven't announced when the SDK will be available to the general public, or even to all registered paying developers!

    They can still add consumer features without revealing them in the SDK. Asking developers to pay $100 a year and then making them wait so long for an SDK is unacceptable in my opinion.
    We all know what "developers" did after leaking Mango features from beta SDK last year. I am indeed glad SDK is being released so close to launch. Less chance of whole Apollo being included in another OS feature list.
  9. jhoff80's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitlov View Post
    Something is rotten in the state of Washington. The WP8 development and release is being handled NOTHING like Windows 8's (features unveiled, thorough testing, months with developers, concrete release date set months in advance). It doesn't smell right.
    As far as I'm concerned, WP8 is just clearly not finished. Supposedly it's close to reaching RTM, and I definitely hope so. But right now it sounds like they're definitely still scrambling to finish WP8.

    I'm sure that itíll get done by November when these devices have to be pushed out, but the questions are: how buggy will it be? and will it be feature complete?

    When you think about it, Microsoft had to start from scratch with everything underpinning the OS (everything except the UI, really). If they're running out of time, I'd hate to see basic features not being present because they have to focus on just getting it done. webOS had this problem on its initial release of 1.0.2, and honestly I think that was one of the issues that it never recovered from (besides build quality and only being on Sprint, but thatís another story).

    At this point, if you don't ship with the basic features that everyone expects at launch, then it's just going to be impossible to catch up, especially in this case. The launch of Windows 8/RT, and all of those devices and excitement are the best chance to give Windows Phone 8 momentum, and if functionality is missing, that'll stop very quickly.

    Of course, if anyone has the resources to pull it off, itíd be Microsoft (or Apple, of course, but thatís not relevant in this case).

    I hope I'm wrong, but the evidence seems to point to this.
  10. thed's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by rockstarzzz View Post
    We all know what "developers" did after leaking Mango features from beta SDK last year. I am indeed glad SDK is being released so close to launch. Less chance of whole Apollo being included in another OS feature list.
    Everything in Mango got leaked early because MS released the entire update to developers to install on their phones, not just the SDK. MS had to know that everything would get out there.

    This can't happen with WP8 for obvious reasons that we all know. It's a totally different situation.
  11. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitlov View Post
    When Samsung didn't turn on the Ativ S, the most rabid Nokia fans accused them of not having commitment to WP8.

    When Nokia didn't let people play with their phones, the most rabid Samsung fanboys accused them of faking all its nice features.

    In reality, neither of them were to blame. Something is rotten in the state of Washington. The WP8 development and release is being handled NOTHING like Windows 8's (features unveiled, thorough testing, months with developers, concrete release date set months in advance). It doesn't smell right.
    Revisionist history on your part.

    Nobody was bashing Samsung for not turning the phone on. Heck, people weren't bashing Samsung at all.

    All that was said is that they haven't shown a high level of commitment to Windows Phone. It had nothing to do with turning on the phone or not.
  12. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #12  
    If any of you are in software development, you probably understand the term "feature creep."

    I would be that's the case here. There are tons of features that teams are trying to get into this release. Some more finished than others.

    It sounds like there was a feature that was added in late, but deemed important enough to extend the test cycle to include.

    Or it could just be that a particular feature has a hard to spot bug, and it wasn't discovered until late in the test cycle. But that particular feature was considered too important to drop for this release.
  13. andrelamont's Avatar
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       #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by rockstarzzz View Post
    "...Let's see what "software" enhancements it has. Surely we will have better choice on hardware than iPhone 5. But if we could sneak in a feature or two from software side in 3-4 weeks time since we have native code with us, then we *maybe* able to launch by saying we have almost the same software feature, but we have extensive hardwares as you've already seen"
    "
    In a shop w/60 plus developers I have tried many times to add features late in the development cycle and it was nearly impossible! Bug fixes only was always quoted as most veteran shops have learned the evils of 'feature creep' and it always introduces more bugs.

    So lets pretend that iOS6 has something cool and innovative to show ( and trust me MS has the iOS6 SDK's )

    * Multiple meetings to hash out the User Experience and User Interface
    then make sure no patents are violated and / or make sure it passes the cross licensing agreement w/apple or anybody else (sigh such a headache )
    * Feature would have to prioritized and ranked against other features that some big wig wants to have because he/she thinks it would be cool
    * Software Test dept would have to re-do their test plans to test for new feature
    * Test plan would have to be created
    * Software design documents would have to be created and reviewed.
    * Estimated hours would have to calculated
    * Project manager using MS Project would have to adjust their schedules to add time for the new feature.
    * Multiple layers of mgmt would have to sign off promising their 1st born child that they have reviewed the software and its working as intended ( agreeing with the known anomalies )

    Now all of this after Sept 12 and before Nov is not likely. I would say its 'pens down' state for adding new features and only addressing X level bugs now.

    *now and individual app may be able to get up and running with a shorten SDLC as their scope is smaller than an operating system

    That's why I never believe the hiding our features from competitor X crap as large shops like Apple, MS, Google, Amazon and others don't run their organization in an undisciplined manner. If anything at large development shops, there is too much overhead to getting things done (cough MS ) so that features and etc take forever to get implemented.

    That's why some software developers leave for startup companies as they can actually get things done...as opposed to averaging 4-5 mtgs/week. Plus MS is not as nibble as Google/Amazon in getting builds out the door.


    Not sure how I got side tracked...
    </rant*soapbox*hungry>
  14. Mitlov's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    Revisionist history on your part.

    Nobody was bashing Samsung for not turning the phone on. Heck, people weren't bashing Samsung at all.

    All that was said is that they haven't shown a high level of commitment to Windows Phone. It had nothing to do with turning on the phone or not.
    One poster specifically used not turning the phone on as an example of the "level of commitment." But put yourself in Samsung's shoes. If you're unveiling your Ativ family of products, and you ARE allowed to navigate fully through Windows 8 and Windows RT, but you're NOT allowed to do anything but show the home screen, of course the Ativ S portion of your presentation will be shorter than the Ativ Tablet (Windows RT) Ativ Smart PC (Windows 8 and Atom) and Ativ Smart PC Pro (Windows 8 and Ivy Bridge) portions of your presentation.

    Samsung took the best phone hardware they have and put Windows Phone 8 on it. The presentation was short, not because they're not putting resources toward WP8, but instead because there wasn't much to say, because (1) that hardware had already recently been unviled with another OS on it, and (2) they couldn't show off anything on the software side thanks to Microsoft.
    Loyal first and foremost to a carrier (US Cellular). Open to either a Lumia 820, or an HTC 8X, or an Ativ S.
  15. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitlov View Post
    One poster specifically used not turning the phone on as an example of the "level of commitment." But put yourself in Samsung's shoes. If you're unveiling your Ativ family of products, and you ARE allowed to navigate fully through Windows 8 and Windows RT, but you're NOT allowed to do anything but show the home screen, of course the Ativ S portion of your presentation will be shorter than the Ativ Tablet (Windows RT) Ativ Smart PC (Windows 8 and Atom) and Ativ Smart PC Pro (Windows 8 and Ivy Bridge) portions of your presentation.

    Samsung took the best phone hardware they have and put Windows Phone 8 on it. The presentation was short, not because they're not putting resources toward WP8, but instead because there wasn't much to say, because (1) that hardware had already recently been unviled with another OS on it, and (2) they couldn't show off anything on the software side thanks to Microsoft.
    One poster? Ok. lol

    As for Samsung's commitment level... I think it's safe to say that it's been low so far. Will it increase later when their WP8 device is available? Maybe. That would be great. But for now, they haven't put much towards WP. So it's very fair to question their commitment.

    That doesn't take away from the device itself. It looks quite nice.
  16. Mitlov's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    One poster? Ok. lol

    As for Samsung's commitment level... I think it's safe to say that it's been low so far. Will it increase later when their WP8 device is available? Maybe. That would be great. But for now, they haven't put much towards WP. So it's very fair to question their commitment.

    That doesn't take away from the device itself. It looks quite nice.
    I guess what I don't understand is what sort of "commitment to WP8" people are looking for from a phone manufacturer besides, y'know, offering nice phones for WP8. Samsung is offering the nicest phone it makes for WP8. A phone which shares a name with Samsung's Windows 8 devices for some nice cross-marketing opportunities. What other tangible things do you want from them to show "commitment"?
    Last edited by Mitlov; 09-07-2012 at 02:02 PM.
    Loyal first and foremost to a carrier (US Cellular). Open to either a Lumia 820, or an HTC 8X, or an Ativ S.
  17. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitlov View Post
    I guess what I don't understand is what sort of "commitment to WP8" people are looking for from a phone manufacturer besides, y'know, offering nice phones for WP8. Samsung is offering the nicest phone it makes for WP8. What other tangible things do you want from them to show "commitment"?
    Marketing!!!
    Pressure/incentives to retailers to push their WP devices
    Real useful custom apps
    Stellar support
  18. pjs37's Avatar
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by rockstarzzz View Post
    We all know what "developers" did after leaking Mango features from beta SDK last year. I am indeed glad SDK is being released so close to launch. Less chance of whole Apollo being included in another OS feature list.
    What other OS feature list could anything appear on? iOS 6 is done and waiting for next week to be released it has been pretty much done now for a while and their Premiere Devolpers probably had access to it before all the other developers to boot. Android 4.1? Jelly Bean is STILL being rolled out why on earth is Google going to make anymore major changes for the near future.

    And anyways what major feature from Mango even got stolen to put into the other OS's that by know a few months earlier the other major OS companies managed to also implement in a timely fashion?
  19. Winterfang's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitlov View Post
    When Samsung didn't turn on the Ativ S, the most rabid Nokia fans accused them of not having commitment to WP8.

    When Nokia didn't let people play with their phones, the most rabid Samsung fanboys accused them of faking all its nice features.

    In reality, neither of them were to blame. Something is rotten in the state of Washington. The WP8 development and release is being handled NOTHING like Windows 8's (features unveiled, thorough testing, months with developers, concrete release date set months in advance). It doesn't smell right.
    This. Something is wrong with Windows Phone 8.
  20. jhoff80's Avatar
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    #20  
    Well supposedly it'll hit RTM next week, but it's definitely concerning. I hope all of our misgivings are wrong and everything is great when the devices hit though.
  21. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by pjs37 View Post
    What other OS feature list could anything appear on? iOS 6 is done and waiting for next week to be released it has been pretty much done now for a while and their Premiere Devolpers probably had access to it before all the other developers to boot. Android 4.1? Jelly Bean is STILL being rolled out why on earth is Google going to make anymore major changes for the near future.

    And anyways what major feature from Mango even got stolen to put into the other OS's that by know a few months earlier the other major OS companies managed to also implement in a timely fashion?
    Microsoft ‘flattered’ with Apple’s iOS 5 Windows Phone features | WinRumors

    Windows Phone boss 'flattered' by Android 4.0 copycat features
  22. blehblehbleh's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by thed View Post
    Unfortunately, that doesn't explain the alarming way that they've handled the SDK release. To me, the fact that you have to apply to get a copy of the SDK is a huge red flag and proof that it's not ready for prime time yet. They still haven't announced when the SDK will be available to the general public, or even to all registered paying developers!

    They can still add consumer features without revealing them in the SDK. Asking developers to pay $100 a year and then making them wait so long for an SDK is unacceptable in my opinion.
    After the Mango fiasco and the recent SDK leak is it any wonder they go that route? I think it's a sign of them being cautious. Only thing to hope for is that their full hand wasn't played by that WP8 SDK leak.

    As for the consumer features, some have to be added in. How else is a developer going to know how to make full use of them or whether they can do the things they want to do with their app?
  23. exsanguine's Avatar
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    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by blehblehbleh View Post
    As for the consumer features, some have to be added in. How else is a developer going to know how to make full use of them or whether they can do the things they want to do with their app?
    I have a metaphor that might explain it:
    They gave the dev's a car with primer on it. It will drive like it is supposed too, steer like it is supposed too, and feel like it is supposed too -- it just doesn't have the shiny paint on it yet.

    Don't forget that no matter when the official WP8 is released, Nokia gets it 30 days before all other OEM's.
  24. Mitlov's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by exsanguine View Post
    Don't forget that no matter when the official WP8 is released, Nokia gets it 30 days before all other OEM's.
    What? Citation please.
    Loyal first and foremost to a carrier (US Cellular). Open to either a Lumia 820, or an HTC 8X, or an Ativ S.
  25. exsanguine's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitlov View Post
    What? Citation please.
    Myself.
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