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  1. theefman's Avatar
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    #51  
    At the end of the day Nokia (and lets not forget HTC, how big was the margin for 8x vs the iphone?) can only do as much as the OS allows them to do. And when you put aside the fanboy glasses and really take a good look at WP8 you will see that its lacking vs the competition and no matter what tech Nokia crams into a device that will ultimately be the deciding factor when choosing a device so these numbers shouldnt really surprise anyone.

    Also consider that Microsoft is worth billions and just reported another record quarter you wonder why WP8 is still missing so many features and seems to still be a side project for Microsoft rather than a main focus for the whole company. Nokia and HTC have brought their A-game to the hardware side, Microsoft and their glacial pace of improvement and empty promises are really the ones to blame for WP underperforming.
  2. Nataku4ca's Avatar
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by johninsj View Post
    considering iphone beat wp7x at about 100:1 I think 10:1 is pretty damn good.
    thats what i was thinking too, 10:1 is not a bad ratio right now and is actually pretty good

    now, if they can cut that down to 5:1 by end of this year then we will have the marketshare we need
  3. HeyCori's Avatar
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    #53  
    If you want to debate iPhone sales vs Lumia sales then do so in the correct forum.
  4. Nataku4ca's Avatar
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    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by cgk View Post
    Surely for the individual consumer, it has to be about now - seems stupid to buy a smartphone on the basis of what it maybe couldbe should do in the future.
    i think his point is directed at analysts, don't think he is talking about individual consumers buying the product... the problem worth pointing out is when analysts spin their headline like this it sheds bad light on something that is actually good and it affects people that play in the stock market and present the wrong perspective for consumers that are doing research
  5. sinime's Avatar
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    #55  
    And WP8 is actually sitting in a better position than 10:1 when you throw HTC & Samsung into the mix. Not to mention there aren't flagship Nokias on every carrier.. At least not yet.
    My Apps: PIP (WP8 - Compass / Flashlight), Beer Knurd (WP7/8), Meme 8 Ball (WP8)


    Laura Knotek likes this.
  6. DontHate707's Avatar
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    #56  
    i officially have one friend i know with a 920, he said he got it because his iphone was ****ing up. so 10-1 sounds about right i mean iphone is just to popular usually android is a hit or miss with most users but at least we have one and not none
  7. bawboh86's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by madsedan View Post
    I love my 920 but I had to give up some things to switch from the iphone, seems silly but stuff like having to get all new accesories to function with the new device, loosing capability to work nicele with my car stereo, and many apps that we used regularly just not on WM8 yet.

    About a month after I got the 920 my wife decided she liked the larger display and instead of getting an iphone 5 she replaced her 4 with an HTC 8x. Just like me it took a few days to adapt to the new OS and find stuff on the phone, but the inability to operate through her car stereo the same as well as some critical missing apps that she needs for convenience and work killed it, 3 weeks later she traded it back in for a new 5 and loves it.

    That sums up 90% or more of your smart phone users. They aren't technical enough to get over the little stuff and find other ways to do them on the new device or overlook missing things in because they have a superior device. They are willing to spend the same or more money for, what is in many ways, an inferior product because its comfortable and easy to use for them. And lets be honest here, Siri is great, I haven't seen anything else that works as well, and watching my wife seamlessly use it in day to day for scheduling and even verifying her schedule on certain days is pretty neat.

    I keep the 920 because I love it, but I hate the fact that the gmail doesn't work as easily and it f-ing kills me that I can't plug my phone into the usb adaptor in my car and charge the phone while using the head unit to control music like I did on the iphone. And everytime we have to deposit a check my wife bust my balls about not having a functioning Chase app to make deposits. But I overlook because I love the device for everything else.
    My sister had the same issue with switching. She's tried every smartphone OS in NA (thanks to me), but always goes back to iPhone because "she just knows it", every time admitting that the phone she's leaving is superior. EVERY TIME. She's tried every version of Android, WP7 and 8, and WebOS. But she's always back to her iPhone for fear of having to spend time with her phone.

    Also, Chase's app allows you to do quick deposits from a Lumia 920. Source: I use this feature myself.
  8. MezJr's Avatar
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    #58  
    It's all about what each person's use-case is. Anyone trying to say people are only into iPhones because they're "comfortable" or "sheep" or whichever other derogatory term is simply untrue on a blanket level. If you already have an iPhone its always easy to just re-up to the latest and greatest. If you're getting a new smartphone an iPhone is frankly the safest bet.

    The fact of the matter is the iPhone is an awesome smartphone. Accept that. It has a huge library of apps, in fact in many cases it's the de-facto primary app platform for many developers.

    You can't talk people out of an iPhone by saying its a bad gadget because it's not. It is however missing some key features that the Lumia needs to sell to capitalize on.
    L920 beats iPhone 5: video quality, low light quality, cost, durability, wireless charging, nfc (challenge here is to make that MEAN SOMETHING on a mass scale, its a nerd feature right now), screen quality, camera button, default maps, navigation.

    L920 beats most Android phones in: meaningful customization (you can do almost anything in android, but most people won't get into making their own icons or theme, I'm sure most people don't even change their launcher., os speed/stability, email (holy smokes andriod email is awful), messaging (no group mms in anything but latest JB), built in VVM (in Andriod this requires a carrier specific app or transfer to google voice), build quality or feel vs the majority of Andriod handsets, cost for a flagship phone, os updates.

    I'd almost think they need to simply air their smoked by windows phone and meet your match campaigns on tv. Combine that with Nokia specific ads featuring nokia music (pandora but no ads), nokia drive, city lens and so on. Plus the little delights such as the pinned photo app where it cycles through your photos, once you get a good library of photos going you get neat little surprises.

    I think in truth WP8 and L920 need to poach andriod harder than iPhone. Right now you got people coming off Froyo and Gingerbread android phone contracts. Frankly in my experience those OS's were terrible. Going from GB or FY to WP8 has to be like stepping out of the 3rd world.

    In the interest of full disclosure I'm coming at this as a sort of smartphone nerd/explorer, I've had a iPhone 3g, 4 (even jailbroke this one), a Galaxy Note that I rooted and tossed a few custom roms onto, and now a L920. Also own an iPad and used to own a Nook Color.
    Last edited by MezJr; 01-25-2013 at 03:57 PM. Reason: removed h-e-double hockey sticks
    jomarr and greynightshirt like this.
  9. madsedan's Avatar
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    #59  
    Thanks for the headsup on the Chase app, it didn't work for a long time, I'll put it back on my phone, they must have gotten it correct this time!

    Looking at the long term potential growth of anything you have to reflect on growth up to this point, and growth from WM7 to WM8 is nothing to shake a stick at. The executives at any cell phone company notice that allot more than they notice if Windows Mobile is STILL behind IOS in sales. I truly believe that WM8 is growing at a great pace and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

    When my kids look at mom's iphone 5 and my 920 they absolutely love mine. Why is that, because its different, thats where the market growth is for Microsoft, IOS is stale. If the Iphone 5 hadn't come out as simply a longer version of the 4 and was a larger display with some tweak to IOS with live tiles I'd probably have one now. But now that I've been rocking the 920 the iphone feels so tiny, I end up getting my reading glasses out, and feel like a giant trying to navigate it.
    Romantical likes this.
  10. vlad0's Avatar
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    #60  
    I remember both of them.. the astound was a branded Nokia C7, which was a Symbian 9.5 device (still the old UX) and I don't know if it ever got updated to 10.x (belle UX). I remember the 71x as well... I had my unlocked E71 for almost a year before AT&T started selling the E71x.. it was too late.. RIM had that segment covered in the US anyway.

    Nokia has a tendency not to advertise their phone properly.. for some strange reason over the years they've always had features in their phones that no one else has (a lot of firsts as well) and they never cared to tell people about it. I think it was all because they controlled/dominated the market for so long, they didn't need any advertising... well now they do, they need an amazing marketing camping.. and it needs to be a very long one.. like 12 months non stop.

    I don't know what is the deal with Microsoft.. they seem to be better at it.

    As far as the iPhone outselling the Nokias.. not surprising at all. I live in California and I can honestly say that 90%+ of the people I see/meet have an iPhone.. old, young.. whatever.. its apple land out here and I don't see how that is going to change anytime soon
  11. GraemeT's Avatar
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    #61  
    We've been here before so many times. Betamax and VHS always spring to my mind. The technically inferior system won. My dear old Nokia 9500 running S80/S90 or whatever. Cracking phone. The last real Communicator. Died a death due to support neglect (by the people that made it - er, Nokia actually, doh!). Blu-ray/DVD. It's almost, if you've got a decent product, then who shouts out the loudest seems to win. I'm with WP8. I'm with my Lumia 820. Love both. But I know we're coming out of the gates along way behind the other horses, so we're gonna have to crack that whip big time. M$ and Nokia are really going to have to market. Where I am in the UK, I think I've seen lots of newspaper adverts for EE and the 920, but that's about all. Pretty much nothing for anything else. I show friends who have iPhones my 820 and they all (without fail, no really) drool over it and say how old my phone makes theirs look. But unless marketing power breaks the mould they're just gonna upgrade to the next iPhone. It's no good having top banana unless you can convince everyone else that you've got top banana and that they should get onboard too. All this said, form little acorns. Let's see what happens.
  12. TonePhone's Avatar
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    #62  
    technically inferior is a laugh, I've never seen a handset with so many issues on release. People tout Nokia's build quality but I have a hard time giving them the thumbs up on that.

    You could never do a proper "Meet your match" ad for WP8 v IOS and Android because it is too easily countered by the things that both IOS and Android can do that WP8 can't even touch, that is not to say that WP8 doesn't do somethings better than the competition.

    The image stabilization in the video recording is amazing when compared to the other phone but in a real world example android or IOS marketing would point out that you can't do any video editing on your handset which ultimately limits your experience more than what you gain with a more stable image.

    In the same sense Nokia could point at the great camera eliminating the need to carry a P&S and making us all urban photographers but it is easy to see that this just exaggerates the fact that you can't use those images to interact with the largest image based social network in the world.

    You can tout the awesomeness of having a phone that manages office files like a champ, but sadly it manages pdf like a downsy 4 year old.
  13. FinancialP's Avatar
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    #63  
    The number is actually 40 to 1 and the x00 series is still outselling the x20 series.
    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
  14. vlad0's Avatar
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    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by FinancialP View Post
    The number is actually 40 to 1 and the x00 series is still outselling the x20 series.
    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
    the 800/900 seemed to have quite a bit of momentum at the beginning.. I think they on the tail end that wave. Windows CE has its benefits.. its a more mature OS than Windows NT mobile, so its probably a bit more stable overall, and power management should be a bit better as well.
  15. Covfam's Avatar
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    #65  
    Windows phone 8 is awesome but microsoft continues to sabotage itself, first at release they promise the world and tout that they have most of the top 50 apps...well that's a lie, they have a lot of 3rdparty clones of the top apps and more than half of them are missing major features, some of the major representative here are nothing but placeholders for example my apps, I have a lumia 822, my wife an iphone 4, and we have a asus transformer tablet and the slacker & kindle apps on both android & ios have almost 3 times as many features as my wp8 version, games? well fairly non existant spend some time and look at the top games on the wp8 lists most of them haven't been updated one in the last 6-8 months!
    Microsoft's music/video service with xbox live is a giant charlie foxtrot, and the only entity at all supporting windows phone 8 is nokia. on almost a weekly basis most of my nokia apps get updates. almost NONE of my Microsoft apps have been updated at all since release and samsung & htc has done jack for their customers but microsoft has sure been busy porting their software left and right to the other platforms. all you get for Microsoft advertisments are stupid dancing clicky surface videos or little cameo apperances by some stars. the only people that are REALLY understanding how wonderful windows phone 8 is are the ones already converted.
    I can't get any of my in laws to migrate to windows phone despite that they love the tiles, because 1. their major banking institution doesn't work on win phone 8, 2. there is not an equivalent to the Cozi organizer app that is available for every other platform not named windows phone, 3. their fitness apps aren't on windows phone 8 and some good ones just left, some of the best diabetes apps are not present the few there are hollow imitations, my wife CANT move to windows phone despite loving the operating system because as a physician not a single one of the 14 medical apps that she uses in her medical practice is on wp8 yet they are all on blackberry, ios, android and **** half are on Symbian! trust me on android and ios there is a metric crapload of useless apps but there are also a TON of great ones and microsoft is showing zero confidence/support in their own system.
    If they put HALF of the effort into their app market as nokia things would be much better. but frankly windows phone 8 is only alive because of nokia, personally I like the 8x best but after previous htc experience on windows mobile and my experiences with my htc phones on android, i've found that htc doesn't give a rats **** about their customers or supporting their devices, so I went with the lumia 822, wich I have to say i'm grateful for because they have constantly added to their apps, and updated to the, and have constantly made clear publicly their plans and intentions with Samsung, HTC and Microsoft its a big vaccume.
    Until Microsoft pulls its head out of its **** and puts the full efforts of the WHOLE Microsoft into making windows a success it will stay a niche device because nokia cannot do it all by itself
  16. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by tekhna View Post
    Rolls eyes. You do know that Nokia and Palm essentially invented the smartphone? And then never bothered innovating or developing their respective products, right? And that Nokia released its first "smartphone" in 1996, right?
    Your being a bit technical. Yes, there were smart phones before the iPhone. Some very efficient tools.

    Who spurred on app development as an entertainment product and tool development product? Who made it lag free and user friendly? Who developed an entire ecosystem- music, movies, games, computer and other streaming media? None of those were Apple inventions or Apple original thoughts. But Apple was the first to put it all in one package. Truthfully, Android still hasn't been able to catch iOS and Apples ecosystem. Microsoft is trying to build one (doing a nice job but still has a monster long way to go).

    The iPhone is stale, old, unimaginative, and hasn't added any true features in 2 years. You can tell that by the fact their commercials pushed Siri and only Siri for the 4s while it was still in Beta, and the iPhone 5 ads are bragging on such amazing cutting age tech as panorama photos (say Cheeeee *takes breathe* eeeese!!!), a 4" screen (perfect for the thumb reach!!) and - GASP- a sound canceling microphone for when you are on a call. Honestly, I was with my family over Thanksgiving when I saw that one, and got so irritated I Hulked-out into mean green mobile geek in spite of myself. Throw in how overpriced their services and products are, we have the litany of Apple bashing.

    But it is Apple, it is iTunes, it is an amazing ecosystem, it is a dependable device, and Apple supports their products. I respect those things about them. They have brand loyalty. Honestly, I think WP has a better chance taking away Android users then Apple.
    Before posting anything, please be sure to get the facts straight. You can always distort them to your liking later.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
  17. FinancialP's Avatar
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by vlad0 View Post
    the 800/900 seemed to have quite a bit of momentum at the beginning.. I think they on the tail end that wave. Windows CE has its benefits.. its a more mature OS than Windows NT mobile, so its probably a bit more stable overall, and power management should be a bit better as well.
    No, the financials are readily available now. The x00 is actually still selling more than the x20 and x22. This is due to the deep discounts and subsidies and the fact that the x20 isn't available in many places.
  18. LeLee092's Avatar
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    #68  
    I've only ever taken an intro to marketing class but here it goes.
    If Nokia really wants to educate consumers about their product they need to invest time educating the sellers..
    Most of the time when you walk into a store and ask about a Windows Phone the representative doesn't know enough about it and would say something along the lines of "I wouldn't recommend it" "Its a hit or miss" or "I've never used one, I'd rather you get an Iphone/Android"
    And most consumers listen to them and buy something else...

    How many of you walked into the store and have a representative recommend you a Windows phone?..yeah that's what I thought
    Romantical likes this.
  19. TonyDedrick's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by LeLee092 View Post
    I've only ever taken an intro to marketing class but here it goes.
    If Nokia really wants to educate consumers about their product they need to invest time educating the sellers..
    Most of the time when you walk into a store and ask about a Windows Phone the representative doesn't know enough about it and would say something along the lines of "I wouldn't recommend it" "Its a hit or miss" or "I've never used one, I'd rather you get an Iphone/Android"
    And most consumers listen to them and buy something else...

    How many of you walked into the store and have a representative recommend you a Windows phone?..yeah that's what I thought
    I still don't get, in this day and age of information being readily available, why anyone still relies on store representatives/salespeople (no disrespect to the good ones). They come my way and I either walk the other way or shoot them down before they say a word.
  20. cgk
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    #70  
    Everything seems to point to pure brute force - the more marketing dollars (above and below the line) you throw at your product, the bigger the result. Some of the numbers are getting crazy, I just saw a twitter from Benedict Evans says that he estimates that Apple is spending $3 per phone//tablet, while Samsung is spending $30 per phone/tablet. I think the issue (for the consumer) is that structural change in the market means you need to have many many billions at your disposal to make a serious impact.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
  21. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDedrick View Post
    I still don't get, in this day and age of information being readily available, why anyone still relies on store representatives/salespeople (no disrespect to the good ones). They come my way and I either walk the other way or shoot them down before they say a word.
    I think it comes down to the fact that the "Average Joe" or "Average Jane" is not tech savvy. Those of us who belong to tech forums and follow tech sites are the minority.
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  22. cgk
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    #72  
    My sister-in-law recently got an iphone, it took me an hour to show and demonstrate to her what an app was.
  23. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by cgk View Post
    My sister-in-law recently got an iphone, it took me an hour to show and demonstrate to her what an app was.
    I have a friend who has an iPhone and has no clue how to use email on it. Over a year ago, I was at a bar with a bunch of friends. I had a BlackBerry at the time, and there were two other iPhone users, an Android user and this guy who didn't know how to use email on his iPhone. The conversation then turned to why this guy never replied to emails using his iPhone, so the rest of the group decided to find out.

    We sent each other emails. The guy who didn't know how to use email could not figure out how to reply to an email or send a new one. The gal with the Android device took the guy's iPhone and answered one of the emails I sent. Then she tried to show him how to send new emails or reply to emails. He never figured it out. To this day, I've never received a reply from him using his iPhone; he only replies via web-based email in PC browser.

    The only thing he uses the iPhone for is SMS/MMS and camera. A feature phone would meet his needs.
  24. JonesCK1's Avatar
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    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by tekhna View Post
    But lots of people here expected different. There was much talk of how Windows 8/Windows RT/Windows Phone 8 would form a trifecta that would radically change the fortunes of Windows Phone, but so far that simply hasn't happened. Windows RT has fizzled, Windows 8 isn't going anywhere, but it hasn't boosted Windows Phone sales, and Microsoft seems to have screwed the pooch on marketing Windows Phone. I don't think anyone expected WP to overthrow iOS or Android, but getting pummeled during a holiday season isn't exactly a good sign.


    [borrowing this from a fellow poster] Hmm, looks like they're doing pretty good globally:

    BBC News - Samsung leads mobile phone shipments

    Some interesting figures on global shipments by company - As the saying goes - "How do you like them apples?"

    1st Samsung

    2nd Nokia

    3rd Apple
  25. realwarder's Avatar
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    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by JonesCK1 View Post
    [borrowing this from a fellow poster] Hmm, looks like they're doing pretty good globally:

    BBC News - Samsung leads mobile phone shipments

    Some interesting figures on global shipments by company - As the saying goes - "How do you like them apples?"

    1st Samsung

    2nd Nokia

    3rd Apple
    Samsung 396.5 25.2%
    Nokia 335.6 21.3%
    Apple 135.8 8.6%
    ZTE 71.7 4.6%
    Other 635.4 40.3%


    Would be nice if Nokia could turn those 300M phones into WP8 sales :) (Yes I know most were not smartphones... but one can dream)
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