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  1. inteller's Avatar
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldmajor View Post
    Nearly 2,000 new "ARM/X86/X64" Apps have been added since release. When i first got my Surface there were about 5,000 apps in the store, looking today there are nearly 7,000 which account for a 40% increase in about 1 week.

    Honestly I dont feel like I'm missing much because the browser is pretty good. I am able to stream my amazon instant streaming, hulu, HBO GO all from the metro browser sans an app. I'll wait to see what cool must have games come out like Civilaztion but im happy. Also in the states it seems like almost every network is developng or has developed a streaming app (although the CW only supports x64 x86 chipsets which seems weird)

    Anyone know how many x64/x86 exclusive apps there are?
    Doing the wildcard search only shows about 5700 and I'm in the US
  2. downhillrider's Avatar
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    #27  
    face it, devs are taking a wait and see attitude with Win8. I knew that when I decided to get a Surface. That will however have an impact on my next phone purchase. If theres no significant apps release when WP8 goes on sale, I will either keep my iphone or get a S3. If I cant get the latest apps on my surface I should atleast have it on my phone.
  3. inteller's Avatar
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    #28  
    wait and see how much money they are going to lose? Listen, not getting your app on Windows 8 would have to be the dumbest move any developer made. I think Microsoft has made some serious flaws in the way they stock and promote apps in the Store.

    I've NEVER heard of this new releases once a week crap people are saying. On Windows Phone, new apps come out all the time, and you see that through the various app trackers. There are simply NO new apps coming out and it is rather disturbing.
  4. mparker's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    wait and see how much money they are going to lose? Listen, not getting your app on Windows 8 would have to be the dumbest move any developer made.
    There are two ways to get your app on Windows 8. Develop for the traditional API (Win32/Win64), or develop for WinRT. If you write for Win32 then your app can potentially run on all versions of Windows NT made in the last 15 years, including Windows 8. If you write for WinRT then your app can potentially only run on Windows 8 and Windows RT. If you do the set intersection, you'll discover that writing an app for Win32 means that the only potential customers you miss out on are the ones using Windows RT (which at this point mostly means Surface RT owners), whereas writing an app for WinRT means the potential customers you miss out on are d*mn near the entire world. I think most developers can live with that. I certainly can. Maybe in a few years WinRT will be a bigger deal, but right now it's a curiosity, not a necessity.
  5. TeknoBlast's Avatar
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    #30  
    Geez some people have no patience at all. It was known that the MS Store wouldnt have many apps. If apps is a big issue for some of you, stick with the other tablets. I knew from the start the MS Store will lack some apps that I enjoyed on other tablets, but since I'm a MS supporter, I have to patience and trust that MS Store will be populated with quality apps.

    In the past week, there's been some new releases of apps. Maybe these are not the ones you wanted, but they're out there. One that everyone should check out is the The Daily Show, which is a NEW RELEASE. Great app if you like that show.
  6. inteller's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by mparker View Post
    There are two ways to get your app on Windows 8. Develop for the traditional API (Win32/Win64), or develop for WinRT. If you write for Win32 then your app can potentially run on all versions of Windows NT made in the last 15 years, including Windows 8. If you write for WinRT then your app can potentially only run on Windows 8 and Windows RT. If you do the set intersection, you'll discover that writing an app for Win32 means that the only potential customers you miss out on are the ones using Windows RT (which at this point mostly means Surface RT owners), whereas writing an app for WinRT means the potential customers you miss out on are d*mn near the entire world. I think most developers can live with that. I certainly can. Maybe in a few years WinRT will be a bigger deal, but right now it's a curiosity, not a necessity.
    if you write an app for Win32, you will be doing precisely what MS is discouraging which is having people run apps in Desktop mode. MS wants devs to write WinRT (as in Runtime) apps that target ALL architectures. There is little downside to doing this and only revenue upside. If you are writing a WinRT app and only targeting x86/x64, you are really losing out on a market that you could easily reach just by compiling for all architectures.
  7. TMavC5's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by DougB541 View Post
    I was afraid the lack of a Youtube app would annoy me...good thing 3rd party devs stepped up and delivered two great ones imo.
    Seriously? Whats wrong with the Youtube.com web?
  8. mparker's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    if you write an app for Win32, you will be doing precisely what MS is discouraging which is having people run apps in Desktop mode.
    So? I don't write software to make Microsoft happy, I write it to pay the bills.


    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    MS wants devs to write WinRT (as in Runtime) apps that target ALL architectures. There is little downside to doing this and only revenue upside.
    There is tremendous downside to developing a WinRT app - the opportunity cost. And since there aren't many people running Windows RT systems, there aren't many incremental customers for a WinRT application. Yes all Windows 8 systems can also run WinRT applications, but that is nearly immaterial since they can also run your Win32 application that has already been developed. Unless a sizeable market demanding WinRT applications appears (either because of ARM tablet sales or because Windows 8 customers show a preference for WinRT versions) then there is no point developing for WinRT, at least not any application larger than a toy app that I might do just to get a feel for the environment.

    Even if you're a development shop with some spare capacity to take on the challenge of porting or rewriting your application for a new platform, why would you develop for WinRT when you can get access to a much larger customer base with iOS? Again, the fact that Windows 8 can run WinRT apps doesn't mean much if you're a development shop with existing Win32 apps, because any of those people that wants to buy your app can just run the Win32 version.

    This situation may improve in a few years. But at the moment there aren't a whole lot of reasons to invest real time in a serious application, unless Microsoft is paying you.
  9. Oldmajor's Avatar
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    #34  
    Here is my screenshot from today. 7,362 apps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screenshot-7-.png  
  10. NickA's Avatar
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by mparker View Post
    So? I don't write software to make Microsoft happy, I write it to pay the bills.

    There is tremendous downside to developing a WinRT app - the opportunity cost. And since there aren't many people running Windows RT systems, there aren't many incremental customers for a WinRT application. Yes all Windows 8 systems can also run WinRT applications, but that is nearly immaterial since they can also run your Win32 application that has already been developed. Unless a sizeable market demanding WinRT applications appears (either because of ARM tablet sales or because Windows 8 customers show a preference for WinRT versions) then there is no point developing for WinRT, at least not any application larger than a toy app that I might do just to get a feel for the environment.
    As a developer, you have to move forward. Remember all the programmers who refused to give up DOS and mainframe programming? Remember all those Jave Applet writers? How about developers that swore by ActiveX controls. Or the Classic ASP and Visual Basic 6.0 developers who refused to move to .NET? Good luck to those developers now trying to pay a bill.

    Why would I limit myself to writing an application that won't run on RT? I can write an RT app that runs on everything.

    You have to move forward, even at a cost. When a client pays me to write a piece of software, I'm looking 2-3 years down the road and what's best for them. You take a risk at times, and hope it pays off. Playing it safe as a developer will let you pay the bills, and that's about it.
  11. inteller's Avatar
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by mparker View Post
    So? I don't write software to make Microsoft happy, I write it to pay the bills.




    There is tremendous downside to developing a WinRT app - the opportunity cost. And since there aren't many people running Windows RT systems, there aren't many incremental customers for a WinRT application. Yes all Windows 8 systems can also run WinRT applications, but that is nearly immaterial since they can also run your Win32 application that has already been developed. Unless a sizeable market demanding WinRT applications appears (either because of ARM tablet sales or because Windows 8 customers show a preference for WinRT versions) then there is no point developing for WinRT, at least not any application larger than a toy app that I might do just to get a feel for the environment.

    WintRT is just OO Win32. Windows Runtime provides ZERO friction for targeting all three architectures!!!! Why would you NOT do that?
  12. mparker's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickA View Post
    As a developer, you have to move forward.
    Sure. But I don't think that time is now. Maybe by Win 9. The fact that Microsoft doesn't have a version of Office for WinRT is the sort of thing that makes experienced developers pause; if Microsoft believed their own marketing they would have shipped some version of Office RT by now, a preview, a lite version, something. They've had years to work on it after all. And yet they haven't.

    Remember, Microsoft said the same things to developers when Windows first came out. Windows 1 sucked, and developers that bought in to Microsoft's line tended to go out of business. They said the same things when Windows 286 came out. It sucked, and developers that targeted it tended to go out of business. They said the same things when Windows 3 came out, but this time it didn't suck, and coincidentally Microsoft came out with Word and Excel for Windows. More recently, WPF was unusable for serious work until Microsoft used it to write Visual Studio, and suddenly it became acceptably fast and stable for serious apps.

    WinRT is too new and unfinished, and the market just isn't there yet. It needs time to cook a bit.


    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    WintRT is just OO Win32.
    I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. That sentence possibly describes the .Net BCL, but not WinRT. WinRT is very new, and though object-oriented, it is almost - but not quite - completely unlike Win32 and the .Net BCL.


    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    Windows Runtime provides ZERO friction for targeting all three architectures!!!! Why would you NOT do that?
    Because it means incurring the cost of writing new software for very little incremental gain. If the market changes and I have a good chance of recouping the development costs for a WinRT version then I'll reconsider. Especially if the WinRT market turns out to be better than iOS or Android. Which could happen, especially for business apps. Though it isn't likely until Windows 9 comes out.
  13. karl11's Avatar
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    #38  
    Office 365 is in beta, but you still download it.
  14. inteller's Avatar
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    #39  
    Windows Runtime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "WinRT applications will run within a sandbox. Examination of the runtime libraries reveals that they are built upon Win32 API"

    listen, bottom line is you would be selling yourself short to not target all architectures with WinRT....and microsoft has made it clear they intend for win32 to die a quick and painless death. I would not be writing for dead-end APIs.

    I see developers use the old line about "recouping" development costs and whatnot. I hear that one a lot when talking to devs about WP7 ports from iOS and Android. I don't know what hackney online b-school teaches that short sighted near term strategy BS, but if you aren't constantly evolving your software's business model with the next technology paradigm in mind you will find yourself without a market pretty quick. Do you remember any of those former GREAT WM6.5 app developers? I don't either, because they decided to "wait" to see if WP7 would take off and then suddenly found themselves without a customer base when Microsoft turned the lights out. The same thing is happening with Symbian developers right now.
    Last edited by inteller; 11-06-2012 at 02:08 PM.
  15. mparker's Avatar
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    Windows Runtime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "WinRT applications will run within a sandbox. Examination of the runtime libraries reveals that they are built upon Win32 API"
    Whether or not they are built on Win32 does not matter. The WinRT runtime itself can use Win32 because it is not a WinRT app. WinRT apps may not call Win32 APIs, and may only call a handful of API's in the .Net BCL. The WinRT API's themselves are (a) very different from Win32 (b) feature-poor compared to Win32 or the .Net BCL (c) very poorly documented (d) only run on Windows 8 and Windows RT.


    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    listen, bottom line is you would be selling yourself short to not target all architectures with WinRT....and microsoft has made it clear they intend for win32 to die a quick and painless death. I would not be writing for dead-end APIs.
    Maybe. It remains to be seen which of Win32 or WinRT is the dead end. Microsoft has a terrible track record with this sort of thing. Microsoft has come out with lots of different technologies over the years that they told developers to adopt or risk being left behind, very few of them have succeeded in carrying out that threat. ODBC, OLE/ActiveX, Visual Basic. WinForms was the hot thing 10 years ago, WPF and Silverlight were the hot things 5 years ago. Remember Silverlight? It was the API for Windows Phone 7.x, abandoned a mere year later. Who knows where C# and WinRT will be once Windows 9 comes out? Maybe WinRT will finally be capable of replacing Win32 (it isn't remotely capable of this as it stands now). Maybe by then WinRT apps will finally have a sufficient market to keep a developer's lights on. Or maybe Microsoft will have decided that there's some new whizzy API they want to go with.
  16. inteller's Avatar
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    #41  
    MS is going to make damn sure WinRT succeeds. 4 million people upgraded to Win8 over the launch weekend, no telling how many have since then. We don't know how many Surfaces have been sold, but we know certain SKUs are sold out. Windows Store is put front and center right in their face with apps at their fingertips. If you have a competitor with their app in the store, the are -bar none- getting better access to your potential customers than you are (even if you get a certified Desktop App link in store, they still have to jump out of store to get it and therefore a higher friction to sale). There is no way in **** I'd let my competitor have better access to 4+ million customers just because I don't want to write in WinRT.
  17. mparker's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    MS is going to make damn sure WinRT succeeds. 4 million people upgraded to Win8 over the launch weekend, no telling how many have since then. We don't know how many Surfaces have been sold, but we know certain SKUs are sold out.
    Those 4 million people who upgraded to Windows 8 can also run Win32 apps just fine.

    I don't know how many bought a surface, but it isn't hundreds of millions, which is the sort of number you need to for WinRT to start looking more attractive than iOS or Android, much less Windows Win32 API itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    Windows Store is put front and center right in their face with apps at their fingertips. If you have a competitor with their app in the store, the are -bar none- getting better access to your potential customers than you are (even if you get a certified Desktop App link in store, they still have to jump out of store to get it and therefore a higher friction to sale). There is no way in **** I'd let my competitor have better access to 4+ million customers just because I don't want to write in WinRT.
    For now I can live with that. There are also hypothetical competitors beating me for a few Mac OSX customers, as well as for some BeOS customers, not to mention those millions of iOS and Android customers I might miss out on if I waste time chasing those handful of Surface RT customers. I can't target every platform. I have to pick and choose the ones that will get me the best return, and position me for the future. At the moment a WinRT app seems very unlikely to have any significant marginal returns anytime soon, and it's future is much less certain than you seem to believe. If WinRT picks up, then I'll reconsider.


    I could be wrong about all of this. Feel free to pick up Visual Studio and start working on some WinRT apps.
  18. NickA's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by mparker View Post
    ...I can't target every platform. I have to pick and choose the ones that will get me the best return, and position me for the future.
    HTML5/CSS/Javascript anyone? It's not a bad solution for some apps. Using a tool like PhoneGap makes it easy to target multiple platforms, and give access to some device specific API's. The Windows 8 SDK is in beta and looking good.
  19. mparker's Avatar
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickA View Post
    HTML5/CSS/Javascript anyone? It's not a bad solution for some apps. Using a tool like PhoneGap makes it easy to target multiple platforms, and give access to some device specific API's. The Windows 8 SDK is in beta and looking good.
    That's very true. It looks like the application space that WinRT is suitable for is also the space that HTML5/CSS/Javascript is well-suited for. There is pretty playable version of Contre Jour done with HTML5 and Javascript and some of the new graphics APIs, for example, and certainly Microsoft's own Hotmail web interface is much more functional than it's WinRT email client.
  20. inteller's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by mparker View Post

    Feel free to pick up Visual Studio and start working on some WinRT apps.
    i already do.
  21. inteller's Avatar
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by mparker View Post
    That's very true. It looks like the application space that WinRT is suitable for is also the space that HTML5/CSS/Javascript is well-suited for. There is pretty playable version of Contre Jour done with HTML5 and Javascript and some of the new graphics APIs, for example, and certainly Microsoft's own Hotmail web interface is much more functional than it's WinRT email client.
    not sure how, I can't view my multiple accounts on the web client, I can on my Surface.
  22. NickA's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    not sure how, I can't view my multiple accounts on the web client, I can on my Surface.
    I can. I send/receive mail from 3 other accounts using the web client. Is that what you're talking about? It works similar to how GMail does it.
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by ndschris View Post
    Do a search for * then sort by release date. The featured apps aren't updated very frequently, but new apps are being added.
    this is really helpful, in the last hour three new apps were added so it works, as of now there are 7889 app in the US store.
  24. Oldmajor's Avatar
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    #49  
    Error
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