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  1. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #51  
    I use Windows 8 and WP8 and I love both of them, but as far as sales go and the people's perception towards Microsoft... it's just not there
  2. tk-093's Avatar
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    I use Windows 8 and WP8 and I love both of them, but as far as sales go and the people's perception towards Microsoft... it's just not there
    I'm not even sure I believe this. Just about every topic you've ever started here is negative, negative, negative. You'd be much happier somewhere else.
    stmav likes this.
  3. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    We certainly don't have the same kind of friends. Most people I know hate Microsoft and despise the new Windows 8... a lot of them call it "childish" or "unprofessional".
    I don't know about your friends, but I only have two friends who own Macs (and the one Mac owner also runs Windows 8 in BootCamp). Everyone else runs Windows. Even my friends in the two Linux User Groups I belong to also run Windows. The folks in the one Linux User Group mentioned that they liked Windows 8 at the meeting I attended last week.

    And regarding Windows phone 8... all they do is point out what WP8 can't do that Android and iOS can do.
    My friends typically do not discuss what their smartphones can do when we get together. We talk about a lot of things, but not about smartphones.
  4. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by lak611 View Post
    Microsoft takes some of the blame in the Vista debacle too. It was not just the hardware vendors' responsibility.
    <snipped>
    Hey Laura, yes, Microsoft wasn't blameless. The "Vista Ready" sticker and the UAC issues are examples of mistakes Microsoft made.

    It's just that IMHO, many people still think Vista was a terrible OS, nobody but Microsoft was to blame, and Windows 7 was infinitely superior. I'm just trying to change that sentiment, which is why I tend to stand on the other side of the argument.

    I place most of the blame for the Vista debacle on a failed business model... a PC OS business model that requires Microsoft, hundreds of PC makers, and thousands of hardware developers across the globe to work together, flawlessly, and on time. It has never worked. It never will work. It has repeatedly prevented Microsoft from innovating in the OS space, at least on anything that goes beyond desktop background colors and icon images, as Microsoft knows full well they will take the blame, should any on of those thousands of participants not be involving themselves to the degree consumers expect. The Vista debacle was the result of Microsoft realizing that many low-level changes could be postponed no longer, if Microsoft was to stick around for the long haul.

    BTW: Interestingly, Android has a very similar OS business model (although on a smaller scale), while Windows RT is Microsoft's first step in attempt to free themselves from those shackles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    MS is almost completely redefining who they are. They're making some pretty radical changes. I think it's a huge stretch to claim he [Steven Ballmer] doesn't have vision.
    He may make different decisions than you would. Sure. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have vision.
    Hey Winning Guy, as far as I am aware:

    - Windows 8 and Windows RT were primarily Sinofsky's vision, not Ballmer's.
    - Ballmer wasn't a fan of the metro UI and initially campaigned against it.
    - the biggest innovations at Microsoft were developed entirely from the bottom-up (by individual engineers, creative-directors and lead-designers).

    All of that is hearsay, but I'm hearing a lot of it and little to the contrary. I have yet to hear of anything visionary directly attributed to Mr. Ballmer himself. That is why I don't feel it is a huge stretch to claim Ballmer doesn't have a vision, but lets face it, most people (including managers) aren't visionaries. I suspect Ballmer has a vision that relates to corporate structure and management styles, but I doubt he has a vision that relates directly to their products and ecosystem. I suspect Ballmer is perfectly fine letting others develop that vision for him. Despite this, I still feel Ballmer has done rather well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    We certainly don't have the same kind of friends. Most people I know hate Microsoft and despise the new Windows 8... a lot of them call it "childish" or "unprofessional".

    And regarding Windows phone 8... all they do is point out what WP8 can't do that Android and iOS can do.
    Could it be that your friends are the source of many of your "facts"? Could it be that you are mistaking your friends views of Microsoft and their products as the predominant world view?

    Either way, you really need to stop interpreting my challenges to your "facts" as personal attacks on you. You can say whatever you want, but when you are wrong, your statements aren't worth two cents, they are worth nothing, and you should rejoice in standing corrected. Apparently my writing style doesn't suite everyone, but it isn't my intent to offend. All in all, the community is better off when inaccuracies are challenged, right?
  5. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk-093 View Post
    I'm not even sure I believe this. Just about every topic you've ever started here is negative, negative, negative. You'd be much happier somewhere else.
    Not really, I want it to succeed, I want it to be better. This WP8 is great, but W8 is flawed, I believe there will be several updates to come.
  6. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    All in all, the community is better off when inaccuracies are challenged, right?
    Of course, but when I look around, nobody has a WP8, nor they have W8. There are several articles from theverge, cnet, zdnet or even BBC that are talking about the exact same flaws that I mentioned. So either every article is false and the community of WPcentral knows better or the enthusiasm that you have towards your platform is somehow blinding you.

    When I make a thread it's not to be harsh on anyone, but I am pointing out things that I have read, heard or seen. Every OS has flaws, but really when every journal has articles on major problems with Windows powered devices... you can't say that it's a successful launch...
  7. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #57  
    When Apple announced that it had sold 4.5 million Macs in a quarter (a new record), the tech press hailed the announcement as "the beginning of the end for Windows," which sold about 120 million PCs in the same quarter.

    When Microsoft sells 5 million Windows 8 upgrades and new licenses in a single weekend, the tech press declares that Microsoft is dead and Apple is destined to rule.

    It's all rather silly. Outside of the Bay Area and New York enclaves, Macintosh is insignificant. And iOS is merely one of several players. People need to step outside of the Apple bubble and think carefully about what makes sense for the majority of users.

    Users in a terrible economy aren't going to spend thousands of dollars to switch to an incompatible, more expensive Apple product. That alone means that Microsoft will continue to dominate. And as new Metro apps come online for Windows 8, the pressure to upgrade will grow more significant.

    Windows 8 (and Phone 8) is a paradigm shift, which is why most of the industry doesn't get it. It's as big and bold a change in UI as Apple's move to switch from CLIs to GUIs was in the early 1980s. And the industry's reaction to W8 today is identical to the reaction to the Mac and "that weird mouse thingy and toy-like interface not made for real work." In fact, John C. Dvorak is still around to explain to us why a touch-friendly, information-centric UI is vastly inferior to the obsolete WIMP paradigm... just as he said "The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a 'mouse'. There is no evidence that people want to use these things" back in January of 1984.
    a5cent and crystal_planet like this.
  8. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    :

    - Windows 8 and Windows RT were primarily Sinofsky's vision, not Ballmer's.
    - Ballmer wasn't a fan of the metro UI and initially campaigned against it.
    - the biggest innovations at Microsoft were developed entirely from the bottom-up (by individual engineers, creative-directors and lead-designers).

    All of that is hearsay, but I'm hearing a lot of it and little to the contrary. I have yet to hear of anything visionary directly attributed to Mr. Ballmer himself. That is why I don't feel it is a huge stretch to claim Ballmer doesn't have a vision, but lets face it, most people (including managers) aren't visionaries. I suspect Ballmer has a vision that relates to corporate structure and management styles, but I doubt he has a vision that relates directly to their products and ecosystem. I suspect Ballmer is perfectly fine letting others develop that vision for him. Despite this, I still feel Ballmer has done rather well.

    I agree. Ballmer is a businessman, not an engineer or a programmer. He probably doesn't even know what a "kernel" does or what's the difference between C++ and C#.
  9. mlm1950's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    Of course, but when I look around, nobody has a WP8, nor they have W8. There are several articles from theverge, cnet, zdnet or even BBC that are talking about the exact same flaws that I mentioned. So either every article is false and the community of WPcentral knows better or the enthusiasm that you have towards your platform is somehow blinding you.

    When I make a thread it's not to be harsh on anyone, but I am pointing out things that I have read, heard or seen. Every OS has flaws, but really when every journal has articles on major problems with Windows powered devices... you can't say that it's a successful launch...
    Good grief, give them a little time. A lot of people have enthusiasm for what Windows 8 and WP8 represents, and what is can become, but if they thought that success was going to happen overnight, they were mistaken
    brmiller1976 likes this.
  10. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    When I make a thread it's not to be harsh on anyone, but I am pointing out things that I have read, heard or seen. Every OS has flaws, but really when every journal has articles on major problems with Windows powered devices... you can't say that it's a successful launch...
    I have no problem with that whatsoever. I don't think every point you raised has been disputed either, as some issues relating to the W8 and WP8 surely could have been handled better. What I (and I assume others) don't appreciate is that you fail to acknowledge any of the points people have taken their time to make. Instead you bounce around from argument to argument.

    > "The company is slowly losing profits year after year"

    I think the financials show this isn't true. You ignore it.

    > "IE 10, which is supposed to be awesome since it's brand new, is still behind Google Chrome for the HTML5"

    None of the sites you listed go beyond comparing the simple numbers spit out by HTML5 compatibility-test-sites which are, by themselves, completely meaningless. What truly would be unacceptable is if IE10 failed to support the overwhelming majority of what is considered the "stable" HTML5 spec. But that isn't the case. Attempting to explain why it makes sense for IE10 not to support all of the incomplete HTML5 spec goes far beyond what the average consumer is willing to pay attention to. That is why you will never read anything of the sort on consumer oriented website. It is with good reason IE10 is the way it is, and it has been explained to a large degree. Yet you ignore it.

    > "Really I don't know why so many people are behind that guy who just keeps dragging the company down..."

    Yes, Ballmer isn't perfect, but he certainly deserves the chance he is getting now and people have explained why they think so. You seem to happily ignore every point brought to your attention.

    Why should anyone converse with you, if you don't intend to engage in any real discussion? It makes the impression you are all about the negativity and not interested in learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    There are several articles from theverge, cnet, zdnet or even BBC that are talking about the exact same flaws that I mentioned. So either every article is false and the community of WPcentral knows better or the enthusiasm that you have towards your platform is somehow blinding you.
    Yes, many of the people who took the time to make a point are more knowledgeable in the areas they chose to comment on, weather you believe it or not.

    The people who work at theverge, cnet, etc aren't experts in any sense of the word. Anyone with some enthusiasm for technology could get a job there. They have a very one sided and shallow consumer oriented view of the world, which isn't a view Microsoft can afford to share. In contrast to Apple, Microsoft (and the Linux community) isn't exclusively in the business of developing toys (okay, that is somewhat overstated for effect). As a result, Microsoft must cater to two markets simultaneously. So, if someone isn't telling you the entire truth, are they lying? That is basically what all of those sites you listed are doing. You only get the consumer perspective. Even if that is the only perspective you care about, I still think it isn't correct to criticized someone before walking a mile in their shoes. Understanding Microsoft obviously takes a lot more effort than ridiculing them, and it will get those sites less page hits, so why bother?
  11. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #61  
    I understand all that, but I truly believe that Steve Ballmer is not the guy that Microsoft needs and if he has to stay... then find someone else to promote the products and put Steve Ballmer in charge of the rest....

    I'd be a thousand times happier to see a guy like Ben Rudolf go on stage than Steve Ballmer... Ben Rudolf has manners and he is convincing, while Steve Ballmer is like a raging pitbull (nothing against those dogs), you want to switch to another channel when he's given an interview. (They got rid of Sinofsky which was a smart move IMO)
  12. crystal_planet's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by lak611 View Post
    The lawsuit was due to the pre-installation of IE in Windows, which turned out to kill Netscape and hurt competition amongst IE and other browsers.

    Microsoft just had to pay the EU again, since its "browser choice" had been forgotten about.Microsoft says it forgot to offer people a browser choice, EU investigating | Marketplace.org
    I remember those days with less than fondness. Back then, if I wanted a full featured Netscape package, I would have to go to Futureshop (Best buy) and shell out 70.00 for the privilege. Nowadays, no one can imagine paying for a web browser. I like these days better.
    My next phone...
  13. crystal_planet's Avatar
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by lak611 View Post
    I agree. Ballmer is a businessman, not an engineer or a programmer. He probably doesn't even know what a "kernel" does or what's the difference between C++ and C#.
    Yes, and?
    Neither was Jobs - that's where Woz came in. Can you imagine Wozniak unveiling the new iPad? If you want an engineer to be a front man of a tech organization, he better at least have some personality.
    My next phone...
  14. erzhik's Avatar
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    #64  
    Ballmer is a multimillionaire but he desperately requires some public speaking knowledge. Whenever he talks, I want to cut my ears off.
    Simon Tupper likes this.
  15. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by crystal_planet View Post
    I remember those days with less than fondness. Back then, if I wanted a full featured Netscape package, I would have to go to Futureshop (Best buy) and shell out 70.00 for the privilege. Nowadays, no one can imagine paying for a web browser. I like these days better.
    It was incredibly selective, too. Google leverages its search monopoly to distribute a free mobile OS that's approaching monopoly share, and there's not a peep.

    Apple leveraged its digital music distribution monopoly to take over the MP3 player market and lock out most competing smart devices from mainstream digital music for YEARS. Not a peep -- in fact, people defended Apple when it caused iTunes to break integration with Palm devices. (Imagine if Microsoft had updated Windows specifically to break iTunes or iPod syncing or to kick Macs off the corporate network... the screams of rage would have been deafening).

    Microsoft has been held to different standards than everyone else, holding back its ability to innovate for years (for fear of a successful product that would further marginalize less effective competitors). It took ten years of straightjacketing Microsoft, beating the crap out of it and locking it in the basement to even allow the Apples and Googles of the world to catch up. The question is whether the old, innovative and aggressive Microsoft can compete with all the stumbling blocks thrown in its way by "anti-monopolists" who simultaneously sing the praises of Google and Apple's monopolies.
  16. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    The question is whether the old, innovative and aggressive Microsoft can compete with all the stumbling blocks thrown in its way by "anti-monopolists" who simultaneously sing the praises of Google and Apple's monopolies.
    Well it's not that bad... People will praise Microsoft if Microsoft starts to do things better than the competition... Apple makes high quality products, while Microsoft makes low budget products... of course the surface as a nice build quality, but as for resolution, speakers volume and lag free OS, Apple won again... it sucks, but it's true. How many times have we seen reviews saying that the surface kept crashing when launching apps or that the Keyboard was poor quality.

    Microsoft needs to go premium.
  17. jabtano's Avatar
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    Well it's not that bad... People will praise Microsoft if Microsoft starts to do things better than the competition... Apple makes high quality products, while Microsoft makes low budget products... of course the surface as a nice build quality, but as for resolution, speakers volume and lag free OS, Apple won again... it sucks, but it's true. How many times have we seen reviews saying that the surface kept crashing when launching apps or that the Keyboard was poor quality.

    Microsoft needs to go premium.
    What? How and where does Microsoft makes crap products? have you ever used a MS keyboard or mouse? did you own a Zune player or an Xbox? My surface is built pretty darn well. I have this bad habit of just tossing phones and tablets onto my desk sometimes inflicting damage on said devices. except for my surface it's standing up to my abuse...
  18. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by jabtano View Post
    What? How and where does Microsoft makes crap products? have you ever used a MS keyboard or mouse? did you own a Zune player or an Xbox? My surface is built pretty darn well. I have this bad habit of just tossing phones and tablets onto my desk sometimes inflicting damage on said devices. except for my surface it's standing up to my abuse...
    The first Xbox 360 was a disaster at launch, the RROD was common and the lack of built-in fan made some Xbox overheat, the Surface is quality, but the touchcover breaks easily and as I said the OS is unstable at times and the resolution is far behind the iPad 4. As for Microsoft's Keyboards and mouse, they are solid.
  19. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #69  
    And the sound that the Xbox makes when there is not much noise in the room... damn it's annoying compared to the silence of the PS3
  20. crystal_planet's Avatar
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    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    Well it's not that bad... People will praise Microsoft if Microsoft starts to do things better than the competition... Apple makes high quality products, while Microsoft makes low budget products... of course the surface as a nice build quality, but as for resolution, speakers volume and lag free OS, Apple won again... it sucks, but it's true. How many times have we seen reviews saying that the surface kept crashing when launching apps or that the Keyboard was poor quality.

    Microsoft needs to go premium.
    Yeah, it is that bad. The Surface from a pure design angle is better than an iPad.

    Those reviews you refer to were written before the first wave of o/s updates were released. Do you mean to say when the very first iPad was released it was in its polished form we see today? Even now some of your beloved Apple products are plagued with bugs - just look at the laundry list of complaints from the iPhone 5. And they've had four generations to get it perfect - and they're the only vendor that makes the bloody product. ****, an entire line of MacBook pro was recalled because of defective retinal displays.

    Try to remove your lips from Cook's hiney for a while.
    My next phone...
  21. crystal_planet's Avatar
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    The first Xbox 360 was a disaster at launch, the RROD was common and the lack of built-in fan made some Xbox overheat, the Surface is quality, but the touchcover breaks easily and as I said the OS is unstable at times and the resolution is far behind the iPad 4. As for Microsoft's Keyboards and mouse, they are solid.
    You know I'm typing this on my non defective touchpad cover and I've never had a problem with the RT os, so I must be the luckiest Surface owner in the world. As far as the vaunted retinal display goes, it's great for reading eBooks, but for watching videos, reviews point to the Surface as the better device.


    Keep 'em coming. This is fun.
    My next phone...
  22. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Tupper View Post
    Well it's not that bad... People will praise Microsoft if Microsoft starts to do things better than the competition...
    You're kidding, right?

    Apple makes high quality products, while Microsoft makes low budget products...
    ROFL. Now I know you're kidding.

    Have you used one of the "retina" MacBook "Pro" units with the high-res displays powered by the Intel HD4000 integrated graphics?

    Who, other than Apple, would dare to release a high-res "pro" machine running with a netbook graphics chipset?

    Worst of all, the Apple guys will use the "quality" argument and then convince themselves that they don't need adequate speed/performance for the machine they just dropped $3K for. While the "budget" Dell or Vizio or HP machine that is 1/3 the price has a decent chipset connected to a high-res display and outperforms the Apple machine in, frankly, every way.

    for resolution, speakers volume and lag free OS, Apple won again
    Boot up one of those awesome $2K to $3K Apple Retina machines from last month with an HD4000 in it. Try running an old game from 2009, like Dragon Age Origins, on it in "maximum" settings. Laugh helplessly as the machine runs at eight FPS and then crashes.

    Now, grab any old Dell or HP laptop for $1,000 with an ATI or Nvidia card and run the same title in "maximum settings." It will crank by at 30 FPS or better.

    Then we can discuss "lag" and "resolution."

    How many times have we seen reviews saying that the surface kept crashing when launching apps or that the Keyboard was poor quality.
    From the Apple press, this is a common statement. The same people told us that we didn't need 3G on the original iPhone, didn't need multitasking on iOS, didn't really need Windows at all (until the shift of Mac to Intel), etc. There's significant cognitive dissonance in trying to convince people that all they need is a single, monolithic choice from Cupertino, and that actual choice is "bad."

    Microsoft needs to go premium.
    Microsoft IS premium.

    I have a MacBook Pro... a "premium Apple laptop." It's crap. Overpriced crap. It's pretty when running the few apps that OS X supports, but once you start to do anything even remotely demanding -- like light gaming or video editing -- the fan kicks in and the OS slows down. It's got a slow graphics chipset, a slow hard drive, and cost way, way too much. I don't see how that's a "premium" product (other than the Apple people constantly insisting that it is, and that I "don't need" to edit video or play games).
  23. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    You're kidding, right?



    ROFL. Now I know you're kidding.

    Have you used one of the "retina" MacBook "Pro" units with the high-res displays powered by the Intel HD4000 integrated graphics?

    Who, other than Apple, would dare to release a high-res "pro" machine running with a netbook graphics chipset?

    Worst of all, the Apple guys will use the "quality" argument and then convince themselves that they don't need adequate speed/performance for the machine they just dropped $3K for. While the "budget" Dell or Vizio or HP machine that is 1/3 the price has a decent chipset connected to a high-res display and outperforms the Apple machine in, frankly, every way.



    Boot up one of those awesome $2K to $3K Apple Retina machines from last month with an HD4000 in it. Try running an old game from 2009, like Dragon Age Origins, on it in "maximum" settings. Laugh helplessly as the machine runs at eight FPS and then crashes.

    Now, grab any old Dell or HP laptop for $1,000 with an ATI or Nvidia card and run the same title in "maximum settings." It will crank by at 30 FPS or better.

    Then we can discuss "lag" and "resolution."



    From the Apple press, this is a common statement. The same people told us that we didn't need 3G on the original iPhone, didn't need multitasking on iOS, didn't really need Windows at all (until the shift of Mac to Intel), etc. There's significant cognitive dissonance in trying to convince people that all they need is a single, monolithic choice from Cupertino, and that actual choice is "bad."



    Microsoft IS premium.

    I have a MacBook Pro... a "premium Apple laptop." It's crap. Overpriced crap. It's pretty when running the few apps that OS X supports, but once you start to do anything even remotely demanding -- like light gaming or video editing -- the fan kicks in and the OS slows down. It's got a slow graphics chipset, a slow hard drive, and cost way, way too much. I don't see how that's a "premium" product (other than the Apple people constantly insisting that it is, and that I "don't need" to edit video or play games).
    You are talking about laptops... I'm talking about tablets...
    Microsoft does not make its own laptops...

    Also, the Retina does not have a HD4000 in it.... it has a NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M which can run StarCraft 2, Max Payne 3, Dragon Age II, Darkside, F.E.A.R 3 and many more games...
    Last edited by Simon Tupper; 11-20-2012 at 06:59 PM.
  24. spyderzWPC's Avatar
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    #74  
    good thing windows 7 and xbox were such horrible products nobody bought....
  25. Simon Tupper's Avatar
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       #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by crystal_planet View Post
    You know I'm typing this on my non defective touchpad cover and I've never had a problem with the RT os, so I must be the luckiest Surface owner in the world. As far as the vaunted retinal display goes, it's great for reading eBooks, but for watching videos, reviews point to the Surface as the better device.


    Keep 'em coming. This is fun.
    Microsoft admitted that they had a lot of returns for the touchcover, yeah... you must be lucky then...
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