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  1. a18041967's Avatar
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       #1  
    So I'm a iOS developer and I'm keen to prototype and possibly move to WP8 but it just seems problem after problem and I haven't written a line of code yet. So here's what I've experienced so far....

    * I have a Macbook Pro (i7) and set about installing Windows 8 & Visual Studio 2012 as a virtual machine, all was looking good. Then when I attempted to run a sample app suddenly discovered that the WP8 emulator runs as a another virtual machine. It's not a good idea to run VM's within VM's and initially this didn't work until I upgraded VMWare Fusion to v5 so an additional 50.

    * Because of the problems with the emulator I then went and purchased a Nokia Lumia 920, all excited and ready to go, but then I hit the problem that the device needs registering before it can be used. Having researched this further I then discover that to register a device you need a developer account, which costs $99 the $8 option is no longer available.

    So for existing Apple developers who are not prepared to buy new laptops or desktops there appears to be no way to test apps that are developed without further expenditure even after spending 500 on a WP8 device. I'm really hoping I've missing something here' but it's not looking good, as devices have only just become available way has the discounted developer account been removed?
  2. mjrtoo's Avatar
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    #2  
    I feel the pain, but wouldn't the experience generally be the same for developers moving to iOS from WP?
  3. a18041967's Avatar
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       #3  
    Yes and no, like Microsoft, Apple also charges $99 for the privilege of using and testing on physical devices (so we have already invested 500 in hardware), but a least the Apple simulators are integrated into the development IDE and do not use overly complex virtual machine technology.
  4. mrgermy's Avatar
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    #4  
    You said you tried to install Windows in a virtual environment. Have you thought about using Bootcamp rather than running virtual?
  5. a18041967's Avatar
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       #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgermy View Post
    You said you tried to install Windows in a virtual environment. Have you thought about using Bootcamp rather than running virtual?
    It's an option but I'm already running XP & Linux as VM's, Microsoft & Nokia need all the help they can get with their smartphones OS and I shouldn't have these sorts of issues just to get started. Android developers can develop on multiple platforms using Eclipse and without paying to become a developer. I'm happy to pay the developer fees once I have evaluated the platform and developed my app but not before.
  6. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #6  
    These really sound like reasonable expectations from MS.

    If you don't use Windows natively, yes, it will be harder. That's not Microsoft's issue.

    Just like I can't develop iPhone apps at all on a Windows PC.

    Instead of getting the Lumia920, maybe you should have bought a cheap PC.
  7. lesd777's Avatar
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    #7  
    I agree WP8 needs developers. Love my new 920 but I want more apps.
    Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express
  8. a18041967's Avatar
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       #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    These really sound like reasonable expectations from MS.

    If you don't use Windows natively, yes, it will be harder. That's not Microsoft's issue.

    Just like I can't develop iPhone apps at all on a Windows PC.

    Instead of getting the Lumia920, maybe you should have bought a cheap PC.
    I think you are missing the point, it is Microsoft that really needs the developers for many reasons and the developers should not have to pay for the privelege until they have an app ready for release. At the point of aaplication yes there should be a charge, the infrastructure and running cost of the store need to be and its not cheap.

    Just add the costs up and you will realise that you have to sell a lot of apps before you can even break even regardless of what platform you start with, having to buy seperate hardware for each environment is far too expensive. ( PC, OS, antivirus, test hardware, developer accounts etc etc )
  9. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #9  
    I don't think MS's focus is to try to lure lukewarm hobbyists from other platforms. It would be nice, sure. But I don't imagine that is where they are going to choose to invest their resources.

    There are tons of developers who own PCs. They're focused on getting them before they can even think of the ones that don't even own a PC.
  10. a18041967's Avatar
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       #10  
    'lukewarm hobbyists' sorry to say that its my full time job and having been involved in the development of both iPhone & iPad apps for one of the UK's top retailers does mean that I'm more than a hobbyist.

    It is people like myself who create proof of concept apps that are then demo'ed to senior board members that Microsoft MUST/NEED to encourage, its the big brand names and apps that make the platform a success. I cannot keep going back to my managers saying I need more hardware to be able to develop on platform 'X' after they have just spent hundreds of pounds on other hardware. They will just stick with what they already have, iOS & Android platforms as these platforms are already costing thousands and thousands of pounds to develop and support.

    Even if you are a dedicated developer the hardware requirements just for the emulator are high:-

    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/For...1-0c273e1dfd68
  11. PG2G's Avatar
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    #11  
    So what is the process on iOS to be able to deploy an app onto an iPhone? Is it free?

    And the discount thing was a promo for BUILD 2012.
  12. a18041967's Avatar
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       #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by PG2G View Post
    So what is the process on iOS to be able to deploy an app onto an iPhone? Is it free?

    And the discount thing was a promo for BUILD 2012.
    No its the same as Windows Phone 8 BUT the emulators have been designed to work properly and not require over the top hardware. If the emulators work well on standard hardware then theres not a problem, but not working on top of the range Intel i7 based hardware is poor. I'm not the only person who thinks this is a poor design:

    (WP8) Minimum system requirements to install the WP8 SDK tools
  13. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #13  
    Why did you buy a handset instead of a PC? That would have been the more prudent thing to do.
  14. a18041967's Avatar
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       #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    Why did you buy a handset instead of a PC? That would have been the more prudent thing to do.
    Because I didn't need one, I have two perfectly good high spec laptops that both run Windows 8 perfectly well, it was only the emulator issue that meant that I needed a handset. Also being a professional developer I know the importance of testing on real hardware, it was a failing on my part not to know that it is unusable without a developer account, but this isn't made very clear during all the marketing and developer posts.
  15. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #15  
    I guess MS will have to wait before they can really attract developers in your situation.

    Expanding the platforms you support is a risk. And yes, risks do cost time and money.

    You have what could potentially be a really good ground floor opportunity in Windows 8 and Windows Phone (since they have similar development environments), but at the same time, it may not pan out. You can also take the wait and see approach, but by then you may be going into a saturated market, missing out on some of the opportunities that only happen early on.

    Ah, the risks of business. I wish you luck. It's a tough business to be in for sure.
  16. thekonger's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by a18041967 View Post
    'lukewarm hobbyists' sorry to say that its my full time job and having been involved in the development of both iPhone & iPad apps for one of the UK's top retailers does mean that I'm more than a hobbyist.

    It is people like myself who create proof of concept apps that are then demo'ed to senior board members that Microsoft MUST/NEED to encourage, its the big brand names and apps that make the platform a success. I cannot keep going back to my managers saying I need more hardware to be able to develop on platform 'X' after they have just spent hundreds of pounds on other hardware. They will just stick with what they already have, iOS & Android platforms as these platforms are already costing thousands and thousands of pounds to develop and support.

    Even if you are a dedicated developer the hardware requirements just for the emulator are high:-

    (WP8) Emulator (XDE) Troubleshooting Tips
    Unfortunately you spent hundreds of pounds on the wrong hardware. Pretty simple really, just spend 400 pounds on a nice Intel dual core i3 or i5 with 4 to six gigs of RAM running Windows 8 and get a WP8 device for testing - that's all you need. Not certain why you're surprised about needing an actual WP8 phone for testing if this will be part of 'your real job'.

    I do iOs development too and it's pretty much the same story on that side. At work we purchased two iPads and two iPods just for testing. You can't trust the emulator all the time, I see things in Leaks when I am testing on my device that the emulator didn't catch. And at home I develop on my $1500 iMac and test on my wife's iPhone.

    It costs some money to get started, but it's much cheaper than starting out from scratch in the iOS realm.
  17. inteller's Avatar
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    It's a tough business to be in for sure.

    give me a break...fighting crime and putting out burning buildings is tough business. i've got no sympathy for white collar problems. my advice is to put on your big boy pants and get the tools you need to succeed, or keep fighting for scraps in the iOS world.
  18. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
    give me a break...fighting crime and putting out burning buildings is tough business. i've got no sympathy for white collar problems. my advice is to put on your big boy pants and get the tools you need to succeed, or keep fighting for scraps in the iOS world.
    Umm... you get a cookie?

    Developing apps is a tough BUSINESS. It's extremely competitive, and it can be difficult to earn a decent living.

    Though I imagine you knew that. You were just trying to be difficult.
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    hopmedic likes this.
  19. RyanR47's Avatar
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    #19  
    Student = free Windows 8 + free visual studio 2012 ultimate + free apphub registration 😃

    Everything runs fine on my macbook air under boot camp, but i will agree emulator through hyper v and 64bit os requirements are complete pain!
    Sent from my Windows Phone 8X by HTC using Board Express
    Yellow Lumia 1020 (RM-875) Unlocked International
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  20. ybahman's Avatar
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    #20  
    ^^ Agree with RyanR47.
    I'm an Android dev moving to WinPhone8. I use a MBA 2012 (for now) running Windows 8 w/ boot camp and the emulator runs insanely well. I still love both android and wp8, but the wp8 emulator run in win8 is a complete joy to work with compared to the jellybean emulator in osx.

    OP - all you gotta do is run bootcamp and all your problems are solved :)
  21. spaulagain's Avatar
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    #21  
    It seems like with the time the OP has spent *****ing about this in this thread, he could have set up W8 through bootcamp and be building his app already.

    iOS has to be one of the worst OSes to develop for, yet this guy is complaining about WP because he can't just do a simple bootcamp install, the way MOST people run Windows on a Mac?
    Laura Knotek likes this.
  22. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
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    #22  
    I use Windows 8 on my MacBook Pro. No issues, and from what I've seen, no lag either, even when using the emulator. This is a 13" dual-core i3 MBP too. The basic MBP, which has specs that were last seen on Windows in 2005. I can develop for iOS, WP, Android, and BBOS. I only develop for WP though, but have paid to develop for WP, Android, and BBOS.

    "Fortune cookie said: 'Outlook not so good'. I said: 'Sure, but Microsoft ships it anyway'."
  23. longnd's Avatar
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    #23  
    @a18041967: just use an edu email and you can register a developer account for free.
    you can find the tutorial how to do that easily.

    Or you can take a look at this program from Nokia, they offer a great opportunity for developer:
    http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devel..._program.xhtml
    Last edited by longnd; 02-28-2013 at 03:33 AM.
  24. leonkehoe's Avatar
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    #24  
    Don't give up. Do you just develop prototypes to win company's business or do you develop apps in a personal capacity as well? Do you have any iOS apps that you were thinking of bringing to WP?

    The common theme appears to be 'install W8 through Bootcamp'. Why not give it a try and let us know how you get on?
  25. thed's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by spaulagain View Post
    It seems like with the time the OP has spent *****ing about this in this thread, he could have set up W8 through bootcamp and be building his app already.

    iOS has to be one of the worst OSes to develop for, yet this guy is complaining about WP because he can't just do a simple bootcamp install, the way MOST people run Windows on a Mac?
    What makes you think iOS is the worst to develop for? The system requirements aren't nearly as steep as they are for WP8. Last I checked it supports Snow Leopard (2 versions behind the current OSX version) and any Intel processor back to the Core line. Contrast that with WP8 that requires Win8 and Nehalem or later.
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