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  1. grabaclue's Avatar
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    #26  
    We've been hearing for MONTHS now that we need to be patient for WM6.5 support that Celio will tell us something when 6.5 ships officially. Well, it's shipping tomorrow (actually AT&T started shipping their first 6.5 phone a few days ago) and still we've heard NOTHING.

    That added to the decision by Celio not to support Blackberry on the C8, is extremely disappointing.

    The people on this forum, and most of the current customers are obviously early adopters. The kind of technology enthusiasts who will buy a new product and proudly show it off to their friends, which drives additional business to the vendor. I used to show off my C8, but since I upgraded my primary phone to WM 6.5 several months ago, my C8 sits in a drawer unused. (I also own a Blackberry 8900 and would have loved to have used my C8 with it, but there too Celio has let me down.)

    I would have hoped that Celio would recognize that the same folks who are early adopters on their products are also likely early adopters of new OSes and phones and would be working to support us. Apparently that is not the case. I would also have hoped that Celio would put more value on releasing beta software to this same crowd for the free testing we'd provide. I guess not.

    If/when Celio goes under, it will be primarily caused by their abysmal support provided to their most enthusiastic users.
  2. graham.hughes's Avatar
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       #27  
    To defend Celio slightly, they cannot really provide support for an operating system that the OS vendor itself has not released and does not support. They would spend a huge amount of money playing catch-up as the OS is developed, and would have a huge number of support requests, many of which would be due to the OS.

    That said, 6.5 launches today, and support needs to be in place quickly. I wonder if they've been distracted by trying to support BlackBerry and Android. Previously, Celio have provided excellent and very responsive support, and users of this forum have enjoyed direct access to a couple of Celio's top guys.

    People are going to see Celio's ability to deliver support for 6.5 as an indicator of how they'll deliver when WM7 arrives (which is likely to be a bigger upgrade).

    I can't be bothered with the pain of pre-release OSs, so I'm still on 6.1, and speed of delivery is not so much an issue for me. My bigger concern is that, if C8s can't be upgraded to support BB and Android, will upgrade for WM6.5 and 7 be possible?
  3. mknollman's Avatar
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    #28  
    I have to agree with Graham on this one - I see nothing but prompt service and unrivaled accessibility from the people of Celio on this site. I have voiced my opinion on their solution in my life, and as stated above it just isn't good enough at what I want. So I switched to a netbook and have been very happy. But even after the switch I still am appreciative of ckj and laureny from celio (and a few others) who have frequented this forum and have been most helpful.

    I also agree that expecting support for an OS before its release is asking a lttle much. I hope they hustle for you guys, but even 3-6 months is probably a realistic timeframe.
  4. grabaclue's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by mknollman View Post

    I also agree that expecting support for an OS before its release is asking a lttle much. I hope they hustle for you guys, but even 3-6 months is probably a realistic timeframe.
    I disagree. The OS has been available for months now. Obviously it has, or several of us wouldn't have been using it. It was also available to Celio for development and testing. There is a reason several companies are release WM 6.5 phones this week. They all also had access to the OS for months now and planned their development accordingly.

    My point is that Celio could have done the same (and may have, but are being awfully quiet about it) and could also have released beta code for widespread testing that many of us would have been happy to provide. It would have been a win-win. Celio gets their code tested practically for free, and their most enthusiastic customers, the early adopters, get to continue to use their devices with the new OS (also providing Celio with more chances to be seen in use in public).

    They have missed a golden opportunity.

    The lack of Blackberry support for the C8 users was just a kick in the teeth.
  5. graham.hughes's Avatar
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       #30  
    It has not been officially available, in a production version. Developing for a beta quality platform is very different from developing for a production system. Developing software is hard enough, even more so when each new firmware version breaks code that you thought you'd finished.

    Equally, supporting end users who may have a variety of different beta versions, none of which will be produced and tested by the manufacturers for the devices they're now running on, and many will have been butchered by god-knows-who, has several problems. One: it's an expensive nightmare. Two: it's useless from a QA point of view, since none of your testers are running release platforms. You spend a fortune chasing phantom bugs (bugs that only occur on one particular butchered firmware). Three: unfortunately, some people are unwise enough to install a beta operating system on a device they actually need, and these people become fractious when it all breaks, and they demand instant resolutions.

    I'm sure Celio will have devices with 6.5, and they may well already have beta versions (testing in a closed group of we are not part). Or it may still be alpha. If they don't realize the need for 6.5 support, then they deserve to be out of jobs. They certainly haven't given the impression of being so slack.

    For me... lack of BlackBerry support on the C8 is not distressing. First, because I have no intention of buying a BB. Second, I bought the C8 with the understanding that it worked with Windows Mobile, and under no impression that it would work on anything else. Though, I did assume it would work on future WinMo releases... :)

    Well, it's now released. I do think that Celio should have some kind of ETA for us pretty soon.
  6. grabaclue's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by graham.hughes View Post
    Well, it's now released. I do think that Celio should have some kind of ETA for us pretty soon.
    You make valid points, although I tend to give people running betas a bit more credit in that they know that what they're running may have bugs and should not expect perfection. While Celio may have to chase down "phantom bugs" I think it is a useful process in that it requires some investigation to determine that it's not a "real bug". As software QA professional, I would rarely argue in favor of less testing or of ignoring a good testing opportunity. Letting your users help test is a cheap way to identify a ton of corner-cases and problems that might likely be missed in the lab.

    But I agree that, now that 6.5 is released officially, Celio should have an announcement soon. I think a little more communication on this forum would be nice, even if they're not quite ready to discus specifics or release some code.
  7. laurieny's Avatar
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    #32  
    First of all, I have to say that all of us at Celio Corp really do appreciate all of you avid REDFLY users who have supported us the last year. I am sorry that neither Colin and I have been real visible here in the last couple of months - mostly because we are working very hard in several areas including some key partnerships and partially because we don't want to provide inaccurate information or "pre-announce" vaporware.

    6.5 support will be available really soon. While we understand the frustration of the early adopters who have been longing for a REDFLY build that would run on their cooked ROMS, unfortunately we just don't have the bandwidth to make supporting that feasible. Just keeping up with the changes Microsoft made over the course of the development cycle was challenging -even "official" builds caused things to break with our driver.

    But, if some of you would like to test a beta 6.5 build, I would be happy to share this within the next week with the first 10 people who email me. There are very few "real" phones out there with actual blessed builds, so you need to want to take the risk of it not working and possibly causing a hard reset of your phone unless you just bought a new phone this week.

    Also, given this is a Windows-focused forum I don't expect there will be many takers, but I would also be happy to let a few more people try out the BlackBerry builds - but you have to have a Bold 9000, a Curve 8900 or a Tour 9630 at this time.

    And over the next 2 quarters we should have some more cool products and platform support to share...

    Thanks,
    Laurie

    Director of Engineering
    Celio Corp | REDFLY
  8. graham.hughes's Avatar
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       #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by laurieny View Post
    But, if some of you would like to test a beta 6.5 build, I would be happy to share this within the next week with the first 10 people who email me. There are very few "real" phones out there with actual blessed builds, so you need to want to take the risk of it not working and possibly causing a hard reset of your phone unless you just bought a new phone this week.
    Hi Laurie,

    Thanks for the update. We understand that the BlackBerry stuff won't work on the C8. Is that still so? Can you confirm that the WinMo 6.5 upgrade is currently working on the C8?

    Cheers,
    Graham.
  9. laurieny's Avatar
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    #34  
    I don't want to seem to evade your question, so that is why I am responding - so at least you know I read it. ;-)

    I need to defer answering your question directly for a little while, but one of us will provide direct information regarding this in the next 2 weeks.

    Thanks,
    Laurie
  10. sixftunda's Avatar
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    #35  
    When I posted earlier, it was not meant to dump on Celio. I am very grateful for everything they have done. I have loved this product since it was a glimmer in bloggers eyes. I still think this is a great product. Unfortunately, I am now in love with a BlackBerry 9630. I SOOO wish my C8 would work with it. I guess I shall hope and pray for some good news from Laurieny in the next two weeks.
  11. redbird's Avatar
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    #36  
    My C8 is standing by and ready to work with the BB...if that is in the works. If there is going to be a Redfly/BB forum around, perhaps someone could direct us to the link when it gets going.
  12. benjaminries's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by laurieny View Post
    I don't want to seem to evade your question, so that is why I am responding - so at least you know I read it. ;-)

    I need to defer answering your question directly for a little while, but one of us will provide direct information regarding this in the next 2 weeks.

    Thanks,
    Laurie
    Reminder: tomorrow is the 2-week anniversary of Celio's promise to provide info within 2 weeks.

    For WM6.5 on C8, can you tell us what the problem is?
    a) firmware code for WM6.5 too big to flash to C8 (but C8N and C7 came with larger ROM chips?)
    b) C8 hardware too slow to handle WM6.5 kinetic scrolling?
    c) other?

    Can you also tell us where things are actually at?
    a) no success getting C8 to connect to a WM6.5 device?
    b) C8 connects to WM6.5 with alpha firmware/driver code, but performance unacceptable?
    c) other?

    If the C8 won't ever work with a WM6.5 phone, how can anyone buying a C8N or C7 believe that their device will work with WM7 when it comes out? If you've got bad news for us, please just say so before more people buy devices under certain impressions left by the "Celio Vision" promo material (i.e. that you won't need a new Redfly when you upgrade your phone).
  13. jwebb56's Avatar
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    #38  
    benjaminries:
    Sad to say but the 2 weeks promised is probably going to be 4-6 weeks. They are busy I'm sure trying to get 6.5 drivers produced/tested/released. That said they ought to have time and the business sense to give us a quick update and some actual facts about C8 compatibility. I for one will be very unhappy if the C8 is a dead end device, whether it be because of WM 6.5 or WM7. The longer we go without hearing any official information from Celio the more I fear the C8 does not have a future.
  14. jwebb56's Avatar
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    #39  
    mknollman -- I'm gradually coming around to your viewpoint. Love my Redfly but becoming more aware of its limitations and more importantly less forgiving of them. WM6.5 might just be the breaking point.
  15. redbird's Avatar
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    #40  
    October 31 and no update yet. Hello! Anyone home?

    Gee wiz you would think with the input here they would at least respond. I guess in a way they are showing us their thoughts on the matter. It ain't good.
  16. laurieny's Avatar
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    #41  
    I know you have all been anxiously waiting for further updates about the status of the C8 REDFLY. Sorry it took longer than I had hoped to get an answer – though I didn’t know you would be quite this invested. At Celio we have been working day and night, but I guess I thought other people were less obsessive...

    ;-)

    We launched the new release (version 1.5) of the software today with added support for select BlackBerry 4.6 phones as well as Windows Mobile 6.0/6.1. Support for select Windows 6.5 phones will come out in a few more weeks, though fundamentally the support is there now, we just need some more time testing these late-arriving phones. In other words we will have another official release for that soon.

    You will see UI changes with our new Control Panel in Windows as well as a new splash screen on the REDFLY, USB print support with the purchase of a JETCET driver, and a few more nice things, but in general the really significant changes are all “under the covers” and predominantly focused on adding support for BlackBerry and Windows Mobile 6.5. This involved adding support for alpha blending, a tricky scaler algorithm, etc.

    We have also officially retired support for the original C8 with this launch. Of course, the C8 is no longer available for sale and hasn’t been for a year now. Due to technical differences in board design between the old and new models and the capacity of that FPGA, along with the overhead and cost involved in regression testing more than 75 phones on all three platforms, it was a business decision we had to make. And build 1.4.0.212 that people have now works just fine for all but the newest phones.

    However, we do want to support our early adopters and their desire to adopt the “latest and greatest.” In order to show our appreciation, we have spent a fair bit of development time the last few weeks going back to the older code base and re-compiling it to properly install and "fit" on the C8 devices. Though we’ve done very limited testing with this build, in general, the communication between the phones we’ve tried and the C8 devices seems to be working fine. Therefore, we are making this build available on a special “magic” web page for those of you that would like it on an “as is” basis.

    Please note that unless you are a Windows user planning on moving to BlackBerry, or you are getting a new 6.5 phone in the very near future, there is no real reason to change what is working for you now, just to go to this build. Though I do have to admit that we did resolve the “grey bar” issue to a large extent for 6.1 phones (still missing the gradient though) and because Microsoft fixed the underlying root cause, there is no soft key menu display issue in 6.5 phones. (Yes this build is pretty good to try with 6.5 phones too.)

    To get the new version (1.5.0.286) today, go to http://www.celiocorp.com/008 to install it from a PC - not available OTA. One important note is that you MUST upgrade any existing REDFLYs using a Windows Mobile phone before you can try it with a BlackBerry phone! Until you upgrade the firmware to a 1.5 version, the REDFLY does not know how to talk to a BlackBerry phone. Once the REDFLY is updated to 1.5, then you can connect one of the supported BlackBerry phones (Bold 9000, Curve 8900, or Tour 9630) to it and try it out.

    We do appreciate the patience you have shown here waiting for a response from me. Sorry it took so long, but we did have to go through some hoops to make this work -not like software development is a perfectly predictable animal anyway. Hope this special build will be welcomed by the people here.

    Thanks,
    Laurie

    Director of Engineering
    Celio Corp | REDFLY
    Thanked by:
  17. haus#WP's Avatar
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    #42  
    Works great, and it restored my previously-bricked Redfly to full functionality! (This is the one that lost BT connectivity after the accidental early release of the 1.5 driver a couple of months ago and the subsequent failed downgrade back to 1.4.)

    This is wonderful. And I now have a Samsung Intrepid too, so if I'm lucky even the My First Phone look will be gone too eventually (I used the Touch Pro to perform the 1.5 update...won't risk installing drivers on the Intrepid until they are officially out). I recall that the Redfly always worked much better with my lower-res Treo than it did with the Touch Pro because of the screen resolution similarities.

    This build is very welcomed and I appreciate the effort that went into it on behalf of some of your earliest customers.
  18. haus#WP's Avatar
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    #43  
    Update: after re-reading Laurie's note about this build being pretty good to try with 6.5 phones as well, I figured it was worth trying. This is pretty cool on the Intrepid.

    Redfly C8 doesn't play nice with the Titanium/CHome interface (items are all garbled together). But coming from the Touch Pro I had forgotten how nice the Redfly screen could look when the icons and UI elements are properly sized (no more meatball mode/My First Phone). Everything looks fantastic!

    Had one crash so far, tried to open a URL in Opera 9.7 beta 1, and the phone crashed. IE "6 on 6" works fairly well so far.

    No shortcut to the Redfly control panel seems to be created in Start-Settings (or I'm not seeing it). You can access the control panel using the Redfly button on the RF itself, though.

    Just thought I'd put that info out there. Now I'll have an option to bring a laptop or the Redfly again, very nice!!
  19. Smart Guy's Avatar
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    #44  
    I am one of the early adopters. I have a C8. HTC released 6.5 and I have my HTC Touch Diamond II (Topaz) upgraded accordingly. With this news, what can I do with my C8? An expensive paper weight?:mad:
  20. laurieny's Avatar
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    #45  
    Apparently my post was too long to read...

    This build has support for 6.5 in it also. We have tested the Diamond II and it still needs a few more tweaks, but if you put this special build on your C8, and get the new phone driver for Windows Pro phones from the regular page at http://www.celiocorp.com/install then you will be in pretty good shape. The Pure and the Tilt 2 and the Touch Pro 2 are all useable as well.

    Not to get hopes up too far, but we have also come up with one more idea (I can't list how many different things we have tried already!) to address the font and icon size on the Touch Pro type phone as HTC has to date been unwilling or unable to make any adjustments on their side. If this solution works we may be able to get it in the 6.5 release.

    The Intrepid still needs more adjustments, but again that is why we didn't say that this build supported 6.5 and we are going to keep working a couple more weeks on this. But those are now just phone-side changes, this firmware has the base functionality for that OS already added in.

    Glad to see it worked well for you Haus!

    -Laurie
    Last edited by laurieny; 11-04-2009 at 08:22 AM.
  21. The Liaison's Avatar
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    #46  
    I'm a BlackBerry guy to the core but I respect everything about 6.5. And all of your touch screen devices. My line up would be BB/Android/(WinMo[touch] & pre)/Nokia/iPhone
  22. jwebb56's Avatar
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    #47  
    Laurie, nice post. In it is the first time I read that the phone driver we need to use is not the one included in the conditional release build. That is probably the cause of some random freezes I experienced when I installed the conditional release on my phone and C8.

    One other thought on the C8 and its demise. Is there a way Celio can offer a reasonably priced upgrade to make it compatible with the C8N? What I'm thinking is a swapping of the main circuit board to the one on the C7 assuming that it'll drive the C8's screen. Or some other technically feasible option that your engineers devise.
  23. kraski's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by laurieny View Post
    To get the new version (1.5.0.286) today, go to http://www.celiocorp.com/008 to install it from a PC - not available OTA.
    Does this same driver work for the C8N or is there a link that I've missed?
  24. jwebb56's Avatar
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    #49  
    No, that link is for the special 1.5.0.286 driver that works on the C8. The regular set of 1.5.0.286 drivers for either the C7 or C8N are at: http://www.celiocorp.com/install
  25. Smart Guy's Avatar
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwebb56 View Post
    No, that link is for the special 1.5.0.286 driver that works on the C8. The regular set of 1.5.0.286 drivers for either the C7 or C8N are at: http://www.celiocorp.com/install
    Then Celiocorp should use a different file-naming convention.:mad::mad::mad:
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