[freestaterocker]

That's your opinion, it's not fact.

Call it an educated opinion. I've seen both points of my argument in action, and reviewers and forum anecdotal evidence from both WP and Android focused forums agree with my opinion.

[irvin792]

It's the WP OSs small footprint and efficiency-prioritized coding that makes the smooth performance on low-end hardware possible. The 620 will outperform any of those "cheap dual-core" Android devices because of the design philosophy of the OS. The open philosophy of Android ends up being its downfall on the end-user side. The only solution OEMs have to enhance the experience is to "throw more power at it". You can do anything you want to your Android--including break it. You can't break WP with too many apps or the wrong app, or by putting the wrong live tiles on it. Now that devs have native access with WP8 this has the potential to become less true, but for the time being it stands, due to the approval process. MS, at least in theory, is making sure the app doesn't break the OS before it becomes available to the public.

+1

[a5cent]

And this statement is based on fact is it.

hey crazeee, I can back freestaterocker up on this. I've conducted measurements on a lot of devices and WP's performance on low-end hardware is spectacular compared to android... including JB. I see this as WP's best chance at gaining marketshare, but the 620 is still a tad too expensive. Shave off another $100, which will happen within 12 months, and WP's usability advantages over similarly priced Android handsets becomes glaringly obvious. This is not opinion, but fact.

The explanation:

Google must develop Android without making any assumptions about the underlying hardware. As a result, they can make absolutely no hardware based performance optimizations. They leave this up to OEM's, which invest as little in this area as possible. On low end devices such efforts are skipped entirely, as doing so is extremely costly.

Microsoft has no such restrictions. They know exactly what hardware the OS will run on (exclusively Qualcomm S4) and they use that knowledge to squeeze every last drop of performance out of the SoC that they possibly can. Those optimizations exist on all levels, and aren't just restricted to drivers as on Android. This explains why Microsoft could squeeze jellybean level UI performance out of a 2008 era SoC on WP7, which was laughably underpowered compared to the Android competition, yet performed better. WP OEM's need do nothing more than install it... no optimization work required, whatsoever.

[FinancialP]

^ what new low end Jelly Bean device did you test?

[a5cent]

^ what new low end Jelly Bean device did you test?

Well, as what constitutes low-end is debatable, you may disagree. It was a ZTE 880. We tested quite a few "low-end" Android devices, but this was the only one with Jellybean. Out of the box it was okay, and stayed acceptable, until you started installing apps.

[FinancialP]

This phone? It isn't new and didn't come with Jelly Bean out of the box. http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/24/a...s-n880e-smart/

New low end devices ship with dual cores. Ultra budget phones launch with 1ghz and can be found at gas stations for 49.99 that's beyond low end lol.

[a5cent]

This phone?

Yes. Like I said. What constitutes low-end is debatable, just as what is "new". Fact is that these devices contribute most to market share. I'm not sure exactly what you would call "acceptable" low end, but $200 off contract is beyond what most people in developing economies are willing to spend. That Asha devices still exist isn't entirely coincidental, but it's not a smartphone, which is what all of these customers are really after.

EDIT: Many more devices with the exact same hardware configuration will hit the market in 2013. In that sense the device might just as well be new. That hardware configuration isn't going away anytime soon.

[FinancialP]

I can't argue with you on that however Samsung is so savvy that they have dual cores matching the competitors low end devices.

Samsung also makes non smartphones too(They quietly killed Bada).

[freestaterocker]

I can't argue with you on that however Samsung is so savvy that they have dual cores matching the competitors low end devices.

Samsung also makes non smartphones too(They quietly killed Bada).

I think what a5cent is trying to communicate, which was at the heart of my argument as well, is that it isn't a specs issue: it's about software. A quick perusal of tech review sites will gain you the knowledge that, barring QA issues, a WP device will run smoother and more consistently, perform everyday tasks faster and simpler, and last longer on a charge that an android with identical specs and battery size.

[FinancialP]

I think what a5cent is trying to communicate, which was at the heart of my argument as well, is that it isn't a specs issue: it's about software. A quick perusal of tech review sites will gain you the knowledge that, barring QA issues, a WP device will run smoother and more consistently, perform everyday tasks faster and simpler, and last longer on a charge that an android with identical specs and battery size.

correct but not against a Jelly Bean designed device. Nevertheless you are 100% correct about the battery life.

[a5cent]

however Samsung is so savvy that they have dual cores matching the competitors low end devices.

I care nothing about core count. I care only about the user experience (measurements, not conjecture) and price.

In regard to being savvy ... No. Samsung isn't more savvy than anyone else. Their advantage over other Android OEM's stems from the following:
•better economic scaling due to higher volume (leads to higher margins or lower prices).
•much larger software budget that they invest into better hardware/software integration and QA (reliability and performance).
•comparatively huge marketing investments (public image).

Freestaterocker is absolutely correct about the point I'm trying to get across. It's all about the software.

Hardware engineering isn't an area in which Samsung's mobile division outshines everyone else (build quality is debatable, but I'm talking only about their devices core hardware)

Although Samsung does well in the software/hardware integration department, what they can achieve with Android is child's play compared to what Apple and Microsoft have done. No amount of savvyness can compensate for the advantages offered by standardized hardware. What can compensate for Android's disadvantage is more powerful hardware, but that isn't available at the low end.

Apple appears unwilling to compete at the low end, which leaves a hole for WP to exploit. That has been my point all along.

Samsung also makes non smartphones too(They quietly killed Bada).

While true, I really don't care. My interest is only with the smartphone market and it's developments. I'm not in the business of routing for any particular OEM.

[a5cent]

correct but not against a Jelly Bean designed device. Nevertheless you are 100% correct about the battery life.

Also against jellybean. I'll believe our lab measurements over anyone else most of the time.

[halimaw96]

Lol what is this blasphemy about battery life? My battery on my 920 barely lasts twelve hours on a charge now with light use, while my friend's Atrix 4G running on Jellybean rom lasts well over twenty four. That's with a smaller battery too. Granted the Lumia processor is a little beefier, but its also supposedly more efficient.

[Laura Knotek]

Lol what is this blasphemy about battery life? My battery on my 920 barely lasts twelve hours on a charge now with light use, while my friend's Atrix 4G running on Jellybean rom lasts well over twenty four. That's with a smaller battery too. Granted the Lumia processor is a little beefier, but its also supposedly more efficient.

Do you and your friend have the same carrier? Do both of you have LTE coverage?

[a5cent]

Granted the Lumia processor is a little beefier, but its also supposedly more efficient.

You probably aren't making the claim of the 920 having a more efficient CPU based on my previous posts, but just to be clear, that is not at all what I'm saying here. My claims about efficiency are related only to software, not hardware.

920 does seem to suffer from very inconsistent battery performance. There is something really fishy going on, likely related to LTE, the OS and installed apps, although I'm just guessing here.

[halimaw96]

Do you and your friend have the same carrier? Do both of you have LTE coverage?

same carrier, although the atrix doesn't have lte access. However, I've already tested my 920 battery life w/o data settings on, and I still get only about 14-15 hours. Not bad, but certainly not great since that's one of the phones main functions. The biggest battery problem for me is the ridiculous idle drain. When I sleep the battery drains 25% in six to seven hours.

[fatclue_98]

I think this whole preference of OS's really comes down to the user. I've read tons of threads like this bashing and defending any one OS and all it came down to was the person. You want a hassle free device that just plain works? Go for iOS. Want a little more customization? Get WP8. Android, especially with JB, is pretty much up to par with these other OS's in terms of fluidity and stability but having that level of customization does come with some drawbacks. I don't suspect that Android is really for anyone who doesn't want to tinker around with their phone every now and then to make it run a little smoother. This sounds pretty bad, but considering that you can install new roms and kernels and basically change every part of the OS, it's a small tradeoff. However, it's not everyone's cup of tea, to each his own.

Going back to the topic, no. Android will not die, at least until other open source OS's (I'm lookin at you, Sailfish.) can eventually chip away at its user base. You always gotta have an open source alternative for the techy ones out there.

Don't rule out the OpenWebOS project. If they can show that the OS can be ported to newer, better hardware then it's game on! Anybody who has ever owned a webOS phone will jump back in faster than old RIM customers for BB10.

[freestaterocker]

Don't rule out the OpenWebOS project. If they can show that the OS can be ported to newer, better hardware then it's game on! Anybody who has ever owned a webOS phone will jump back in faster than old RIM customers for BB10.

I don't know, man... WebOS was awesome but not everyone wants to flash their phone.

[halimaw96]

Don't rule out the OpenWebOS project. If they can show that the OS can be ported to newer, better hardware then it's game on! Anybody who has ever owned a webOS phone will jump back in faster than old RIM customers for BB10.

Ah, I totally forgot about WebOS. I personally never used it, but it would be nice. I'm really rooting for Sailfish, but hey the more the merrier!

[fatclue_98]

I don't know, man... WebOS was awesome but not everyone wants to flash their phone.

The porting exercise is a proof of concept at this phase. Just as the Ubuntu, Sailfish and Firefox ports are. If there is success with OWOS, carriers and/or OEMs will take notice because everybody knows, as you acknowledged, that webOS was indeed awesome. Ubuntu and the others don't have the prior user experience to go toe-to-toe with OWOS. If OpenMobile ever fulfills their mission of running Android within webOS, you could see a native dual-boot device in the near future. Windows Phone is such a different user experience that it would probably benefit from such an arrangement because the sales scavenging would come at Android's expense. My opinion anyway.

[ricbon]

i dont think android is falling apart but i think there will be a big shake up this year with samsung trying to go solo with tizen os that has been reported, but also lets see what johnny ives brings to ios.
edit: and google finally going moto on the nexus program.

[freestaterocker]

The porting exercise is a proof of concept at this phase. Just as the Ubuntu, Sailfish and Firefox ports are. If there is success with OWOS, carriers and/or OEMs will take notice because everybody knows, as you acknowledged, that webOS was indeed awesome. Ubuntu and the others don't have the prior user experience to go toe-to-toe with OWOS. If OpenMobile ever fulfills their mission of running Android within webOS, you could see a native dual-boot device in the near future. Windows Phone is such a different user experience that it would probably benefit from such an arrangement because the sales scavenging would come at Android's expense. My opinion anyway.

Excellent point! While I'm all for competition to breed improvement, many WebOS refugees have turned to WP due to some similar design concepts, and I feel it's likely those people would return to their first love. (and rightly so) I think, in the end, WP would be hit harder that android. Also by volume... 100,000 people going back to Web OS would hit WP market share pretty hard, whereas Android wouldn't even notice.

[freestaterocker]

same carrier, although the atrix doesn't have lte access. However, I've already tested my 920 battery life w/o data settings on, and I still get only about 14-15 hours. Not bad, but certainly not great since that's one of the phones main functions. The biggest battery problem for me is the ridiculous idle drain. When I sleep the battery drains 25% in six to seven hours.

I think you may have something wrong with your device or something... I posted a battery saver screenshot in the Ativ S forums from a day where my phone, with only 300mah larger capacity and the same SoC, had gone almost 13 hours with light usage and data off for 10½ of those hours and only dropped down to 94% from a full charge.

And here it is!


wp_ss_20130122_0001.png

[halimaw96]

My blame lies with Portico. Pre portico my battery life was pretty decent, now its just horrid.

[inside man 55]

something is wrong with your battery, if I don't leave my phone on the wireless pad I lose about 6-7% while sleeping. On a hard day of use I will have 40% remaining when I leave for home, from the time I use it as an alarm at 6:30 am.